Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[HarmonicTHD]

I think I read somewhere that there are two ways to use only the pre-outs of the receiver: One way simply ignores the receiver's speaker out terminals and connects to the pre-outs; the other way actually shuts off the receiver's internal power amplifier channels, which I would like to do. Please enlighten me? Thanks.

Both ways shut it off. Pre-amp mode shuts all off and the other does it selectively. Look at the manual it is well explained in which menu to do it.

 

[Dobbyisfree]

Both ways shut it off. Pre-amp mode shuts all off and the other does it selectively. Look at the manual it is well explained in which menu to do it.

As far as I was aware, neither the x3800 or x4800 can switch off the internal amps whilst providing a signal to the pre out. The pre out or pre outs can be disconnected from the internal amps only.

There are other D&M models that can do this, for example the X8500, where I believe that it shuts down internal amps.

However, not sure where this can be completely confirmed. As the manuals for all three models I've quoted here, plus the manual for my x3700, use the words "stops operation of the internal amplifier of this unit". Which is not really specific!

I do know, with my x3700, that idle power consumption in ECO mode with speakers connected, versus (forced) ECO mode in pre-amp mode drops a few Watts.

Do you have any provenance on this that you could share please?

 

[MiniC]

New member here.
Finished reading all the pages.

I seek some advice after reading thru and basically not really an audio guy.
Keypoint I absorb is, I see lots of discussion on the SINAD which I googled is signal noise distortion.

I’m using Denon x1300w, using LR=Kef R3, C=Kef R2C, Front Atmos=Kef R8a, Rear surround=Kef Q55.2. Spare rear height=Kef 60s. Sub=Boston acoustics asw250.
Mainly for hometheater At -55db volume.
Dedicated theater room size 14ft by 9.5ft, height 7.9ft.

Currently Am considering x4800h over the 3800 due to I came upon comparison on the ZkElectronic website, that 4800 has 2 items that 3800 is missing, which as a “spec” person, considered them as important. And since I’m probably going to use the avr for > 5years.
1) 32bit chip for audio processing
2) AL32 which 3800

In singapore, the avr has only 1 year warranty. I‘m green with envy that it is 3 in USA.
3800 retails for usd1805. 4800 retails for usd2708.

The questions I have are
1) if my listening volume is -55 to -60db, does SINAD matters?
2) When watching saving private Ryan, in the beginning of the show(dreamworks intro) where the boy on the moon cast the bait into the water, I heard a soft ‘ripple” sound when the bait drops into the water, ONCE. I was reading on my iPad.
So I was stunned to hear this As normally it’s silent at the beginning. But I keep repeating playing the scene, but I cannot hear it anymore.
Do you guys who have the movie can hear this water ripple sound when the bait drops into the water?
3) I’m thinking with either the 3800/4800, I’m able to use my spare key 60s as rear height. It’s 4ohm. Will either 3800/4800 able to support all my spks?
4) What do I do with my x1300w? sell off or ?

Thanks!

 

[HarmonicTHD]

As far as I was aware, neither the x3800 or x4800 can switch off the internal amps whilst providing a signal to the pre out. The pre out or pre outs can be disconnected from the internal amps only.

There are other D&M models that can do this, for example the X8500, where I believe that it shuts down internal amps.

However, not sure where this can be completely confirmed. As the manuals for all three models I've quoted here, plus the manual for my x3700, use the words "stops operation of the internal amplifier of this unit". Which is not really specific!

I do know, with my x3700, that idle power consumption in ECO mode with speakers connected, versus (forced) ECO mode in pre-amp mode drops a few Watts.

Do you have any provenance on this that you could share please?

You are right. I should have been more precise.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Will this be a better match to a monolith 7x than the 3800h or rz50 of I normally listen at around -20 to -14 ?
Just trying to figure out since the 7x Input Sensitivity for Full Rated Power is 1.6v
Thanks

 

[peng]

Will this be a better match to a monolith 7x than the 3800h or rz50 of I normally listen at around -20 to -14 ?
Just trying to figure out since the 7x Input Sensitivity for Full Rated Power is 1.6v
Thanks

They all can output cleanly at or above 1.6 V, so no difference.

 

[RF Air]

New member here.
Finished reading all the pages.

I seek some advice after reading thru and basically not really an audio guy.
Keypoint I absorb is, I see lots of discussion on the SINAD which I googled is signal noise distortion.

I’m using Denon x1300w, using LR=Kef R3, C=Kef R2C, Front Atmos=Kef R8a, Rear surround=Kef Q55.2. Spare rear height=Kef 60s. Sub=Boston acoustics asw250.
Mainly for hometheater At -55db volume.
Dedicated theater room size 14ft by 9.5ft, height 7.9ft.

Currently Am considering x4800h over the 3800 due to I came upon comparison on the ZkElectronic website, that 4800 has 2 items that 3800 is missing, which as a “spec” person, considered them as important. And since I’m probably going to use the avr for > 5years.
1) 32bit chip for audio processing
2) AL32 which 3800

In singapore, the avr has only 1 year warranty. I‘m green with envy that it is 3 in USA.
3800 retails for usd1805. 4800 retails for usd2708.

The questions I have are
1) if my listening volume is -55 to -60db, does SINAD matters?
2) When watching saving private Ryan, in the beginning of the show(dreamworks intro) where the boy on the moon cast the bait into the water, I heard a soft ‘ripple” sound when the bait drops into the water, ONCE. I was reading on my iPad.
So I was stunned to hear this As normally it’s silent at the beginning. But I keep repeating playing the scene, but I cannot hear it anymore.
Do you guys who have the movie can hear this water ripple sound when the bait drops into the water?
3) I’m thinking with either the 3800/4800, I’m able to use my spare key 60s as rear height. It’s 4ohm. Will either 3800/4800 able to support all my spks?
4) What do I do with my x1300w? sell off or ?

Thanks!

Hello @MiniC and welcome to the Forum!

I own the 4800 (which was the actual unit Amir Reviewed and Tested) and was undecided earlier if I wanted to go with the 3800 or 4800. After the testing results of both units, it was easier for me to quantify the choice to go with the 4800. As you read, the SINAD results were better with the 4800, and the features were more beneficial to the overall quality of performance. Many will argue that it's not important and too small to notice a difference, but I am of the opinion that the design difference and overall performance improvements of the 4800 was worth the additional investment for me.

SINAD has been a debatable discussion within this Forum. I think of SINAD as a build quality that is indicative of the design, quality of components and performance. Will it matter for your listening experience is very subjective to each listener. However I will note that if the SINAD is exceptional, the Fidelity of your system is less of a concerning factor with a build quality and performance range that exceeds your application requirements.

The 3800 and 4800 would be able to support all of your Speakers. I am of the opinion that the load required to drive all speakers is better served by the higher rated 4800 Power Supply and Amplifiers. Longevity of reliability with electronic performance equipment is proportional to the loads applied that generate heat energy. If the design performance of electronic equipment is rated higher than the typical operation load requirement, performance and reliability is comfortably within design limits which is more beneficial. The 3800 would work well, but I would personally prefer the 4800 performance to have the additional load capability for Speaker Amplification Performance.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Hello @MiniC and welcome to the Forum!

I own the 4800 (which was the actual unit Amir Reviewed and Tested) and was undecided earlier if I wanted to go with the 3800 or 4800. After the testing results of both units, it was easier for me to quantify the choice to go with the 4800. As you read, the SINAD results were better with the 4800, and the features were more beneficial to the overall quality of performance. Many will argue that it's not important and too small to notice a difference, but I am of the opinion that the design difference and overall performance improvements of the 4800 was worth the additional investment for me.

SINAD has been a debatable discussion within this Forum. I think of SINAD as a build quality that is indicative of the design, quality of components and performance. Will it matter for your listening experience is very subjective to each listener. However I will note that if the SINAD is exceptional, the Fidelity of your system is less of a concerning factor with a build quality and performance range that exceeds your application requirements.

The 3800 and 4800 would be able to support all of your Speakers. I am of the opinion that the load required to drive all speakers is better served by the higher rated 4800 Power Supply and Amplifiers. Longevity of reliability with electronic performance equipment is proportional to the loads applied that generate heat energy. If the design performance of electronic equipment is rated higher than the typical operation load requirement, performance and reliability is comfortably within design limits which is more beneficial. The 3800 would work well, but I would personally prefer the 4800 performance to have the additional load capability for Speaker Amplification Performance.

So with external amplification it makes less sense to go with the 4800, right?

 

[RF Air]

So with external amplification it makes less sense to go with the 4800, right?

Well, yes and no. If amplifier performance is the only concern, then I would say sure, buy the 3800.

I run outboard Amps with my 4800 but will use the Internal Amps for the Atmos Speakers. And the performance and additional features of the 4800 which is better than the 3800 are beneficial to me. The Japanese build and Amplifier redesign as well as the Jitter Chip for me where valuable add ons that I found desirable, besides the larger Power Supply and overall expectation of the 4800 Series over the 3800. Ultimately, with the difference in SINAD, this was quantifiable as an improvement of performance level for me, indicative of a better build architecture/quality, especially being that both the 3800 and 4800 use the same TI DAC's.

 

[peng]

I’m using Denon x1300w, using LR=Kef R3, C=Kef R2C, Front Atmos=Kef R8a, Rear surround=Kef Q55.2. Spare rear height=Kef 60s. Sub=Boston acoustics asw250.
Mainly for hometheater At -55db volume.
Dedicated theater room size 14ft by 9.5ft, height 7.9ft.

Are you sure you listen at -55 volume? The Denon AVR-X1300W's volume has a range of -79.5 to 18. If you only need to set it to -55 then the slightly more powerful X4800H, (less than 10% more) will make no difference for you. That should be the case even if you listen with volume to -20 or higher.

Currently Am considering x4800h over the 3800 due to I came upon comparison on the ZkElectronic website, that 4800 has 2 items that 3800 is missing, which as a “spec” person, considered them as important. And since I’m probably going to use the avr for > 5years.
1) 32bit chip for audio processing
2) AL32 which 3800

I think you might have misunderstood the D.D.S.C. term Denon used that described the following:

D.D.S.C. HD Digital

D.D.S.C.-HD for high-quality high definition Sound Reproduction: DDSC (Dynamic Discrete Surround Circuit)-HD (High Definition) Digital is a circuit configuration specially designed by Denon in which all elements of the surround processor are optimized through the use of selected high-performance discrete components, including separate A/D and D/A converters, with sophisticated HD DSP surround decoding.

The fact is, both the 3800 and 4800 uses the same ADC, DAC, and volume control chips. They also uses the same DSP (digital signal processor):

In singapore, the avr has only 1 year warranty. I‘m green with envy that it is 3 in USA.
3800 retails for usd1805. 4800 retails for usd2708.

If you really want the 4800, you should look for a better deal. How about the Marantz Cinema 40, and 50? Someone from Singapore said in Singapore, the prices for Marantz and Denon are not very different.

I do agree with R F Air, that the 4800 has better build quality, but his point on the power output difference won't benefit you. Also, if you do need more power, you will be far better off adding an external power amp to feed the R3, though again, based on your volume setting on the less powerful X1300W, the 3800 will meet your needs.

 

[ColinD]

I am a little confused on the preamp mode. When used in preamp mode (selectively or all channels) I understand the amps are disconnected at some point in the signal and helps with noise and bumps the pre out voltage but do the amps stop drawing power as well? I kind of like the idea of using the AVR as is to begin with and adding nice class D amps down the road and using this as a preamp but if the A/B amps are just continuously drawing power, even in preamp mode, it seems kind of a waste of electricity and feel like I should just wait to buy a surround processor like an AVM70 and amps together if that’s the case. Can anyone confirm whats actually happening in the unit?

 

[MiniC]

Hello @MiniC and welcome to the Forum!

I own the 4800 (which was the actual unit Amir Reviewed and Tested) and was undecided earlier if I wanted to go with the 3800 or 4800. After the testing results of both units, it was easier for me to quantify the choice to go with the 4800. As you read, the SINAD results were better with the 4800, and the features were more beneficial to the overall quality of performance. Many will argue that it's not important and too small to notice a difference, but I am of the opinion that the design difference and overall performance improvements of the 4800 was worth the additional investment for me.

SINAD has been a debatable discussion within this Forum. I think of SINAD as a build quality that is indicative of the design, quality of components and performance. Will it matter for your listening experience is very subjective to each listener. However I will note that if the SINAD is exceptional, the Fidelity of your system is less of a concerning factor with a build quality and performance range that exceeds your application requirements.

The 3800 and 4800 would be able to support all of your Speakers. I am of the opinion that the load required to drive all speakers is better served by the higher rated 4800 Power Supply and Amplifiers. Longevity of reliability with electronic performance equipment is proportional to the loads applied that generate heat energy. If the design performance of electronic equipment is rated higher than the typical operation load requirement, performance and reliability is comfortably within design limits which is more beneficial. The 3800 would work well, but I would personally prefer the 4800 performance to have the additional load capability for Speaker Amplification Performance.

Hi RF Air, I’ve got myself the 4800 yesterday, though the final push was due to I learnt that a colleague of mine fainted at work.
Then I think life‘s short, just go for the 1 I can afford.

Your thoughts on the SINAD value to built quality now further reinforce my decision of getting the 4800.
Straight out of box(haven’t really explore the functions yet) key factors I like the software calibration are;
1) it detects the sub level and show real-time feedback for me to adjust the sub’s volume to 75db.
2) able to set distance of Dolby Atmos spkr to ceiling height.
3)More graphic interface during the calibration setup.

Not really trained on reading graphs of audio testing, but wish to learn more.
Currently I just run the multieq app and listen. I run Denon MultEQ app on both x1300w & x4800h.
And I see a difference from the graph which I don’t understand. Will upload the pic later.
I can only use my feeling when I listen and compare.
I’m more of movie guy than music guy.
Comparing sound of x1300w vs x4800h when watching movies last night, i would describe with x1300w, I feel all the sound is in front of my projector screen.
With x4800h, the sound seems to be moved backwards, like coming from the screen.
I suddenly feel my room is wider.
Not sure what does this mean in audio technical term.

Also I noticed that the 4k hdr videos are darker after I swapped in the 4800.
I had download a ThX app on my iPad and I ran it to cal the brightness, contrast, color and tone.
Then I got the brightness back. But still the color shade are darker if I compared to my old avr.
so it seems passing thru the avr to the projector, some “alteration” is done. I tried to switch the 4/8k format from enhanced to standard. But nothing from projector. Need to find out more.

 

[MiniC]

Are you sure you listen at -55 volume? The Denon AVR-X1300W's volume has a range of -79.5 to 18. If you only need to set it to -55 then the slightly more powerful X4800H, (less than 10% more) will make no difference for you. That should be the case even if you listen with volume to -20 or higher.

I think you might have misunderstood the D.D.S.C. term Denon used that described the following:

D.D.S.C. HD Digital

D.D.S.C.-HD for high-quality high definition Sound Reproduction: DDSC (Dynamic Discrete Surround Circuit)-HD (High Definition) Digital is a circuit configuration specially designed by Denon in which all elements of the surround processor are optimized through the use of selected high-performance discrete components, including separate A/D and D/A converters, with sophisticated HD DSP surround decoding.

The fact is, both the 3800 and 4800 uses the same ADC, DAC, and volume control chips. They also uses the same DSP (digital signal processor):

View attachment 285267

If you really want the 4800, you should look for a better deal. How about the Marantz Cinema 40, and 50? Someone from Singapore said in Singapore, the prices for Marantz and Denon are not very different.

I do agree with R F Air, that the 4800 has better build quality, but his point on the power output difference won't benefit you. Also, if you do need more power, you will be far better off adding an external power amp to feed the R3, though again, based on your volume setting on the less powerful X1300W, the 3800 will meet your needs.

Hi peng, I read the threads too late. Had got myself the 4800 yesterday.
I’m a Denon guy so I didn’t check out on other brands. But now that I know, will take note of Marantz in the future.
So both units are using the same chips. Guessed that website show me the wrong info.
I owned the x1300w for at least 6years. And before I bought the x4800h, I reverified the x1300w’s gui to make sure it is -55db.
For x4800h volume, i set to -55db. Comparing the loudness, they are similar to my ears. But x4800h has more details when I watched saving private Ryan the beginning beach scene.
I find that if I increase the volume of the x1300w To -60db, the loudness will be kinda unbearable.
But for x4800h, the loudness does not have the same effect.

I got a question on the room correction of MultEQ app For my old Denon x1300w and x4800. Need some advice from the pros.
It seems like for Audyssey 0-200hz, it flatten the trace for x4800h. But both my x1300w & x4800h have same filtered freq till 201hz.
ive turned off midrange compensation.
Is that normal or I need to change some setting In the avr?

X1300w multieq app filtered freq till 201hz, Front spk and Center spk



x4800h MultEQ app filtered freq till 201hz

 

[peng]

Hi peng, I read the threads too late. Had got myself the 4800 yesterday.
I’m a Denon guy so I didn’t check out on other brands. But now that I know, will take note of Marantz in the future.
So both units are using the same chips. Guessed that website show me the wrong info.
I owned the x1300w for at least 6years. And before I bought the x4800h, I reverified the x1300w’s gui to make sure it is -55db.
For x4800h volume, i set to -55db. Comparing the loudness, they are similar to my ears. But x4800h has more details when I watched saving private Ryan the beginning beach scene.
I find that if I increase the volume of the x1300w To -60db, the loudness will be kinda unbearable.
But for x4800h, the loudness does not have the same effect.

I got a question on the room correction of MultEQ app For my old Denon x1300w and x4800. Need some advice from the pros.
It seems like for Audyssey 0-200hz, it flatten the trace for x4800h. But both my x1300w & x4800h have same filtered freq till 201hz.
ive turned off midrange compensation.
Is that normal or I need to change some setting In the avr?

X1300w multieq app filtered freq till 201hz, Front spk and Center spk
View attachment 285405View attachment 285406View attachment 285407


x4800h MultEQ app filtered freq till 201hz
View attachment 285408View attachment 285409View attachment 285410

If even -60 is loud enough for you, your speakers must be very close to the mic position. Sorry I have to ask again, are you sure the volume was at -60, not 60? If you use the relative scale, that most prefer (I would think), its range should be about -79.5 to 18. If on the absolute scale then it is probably from 0 to 98, so if you are using the absolute scale, then 60 can be loud enough if you sit close to the speakers. Denon probably default to the absolute scale, in that case if you have not changed the setting, then you may in fact be seeing that and it would be 55 or 60, without the "-" sign.

As to the "same filtered freq till 201hz, I have no idea what you are referring, can you elaborate more on this.
Regardless, the 4800's has Audyssey XT32 Subeq HT, that can do a much better job with the bass range, than the 1300's Audyssey XT version. In the screenshot you included, there are a bunch of peaks in the 120 to 800 Hz range that does not look normal at all. Did you run Audyssey for all 8 positions, and did you follow instruction to the letter?

In addition to Denon's instruction in the owner's manual, you can pick up some tips on various websites, such as the following:

Simple Home Cinema - Simple, Clear, Concise Advice

Find out how to get the best out of you Audyssey receiver in this article by configuring Audyssey the Right Way!

simplehomecinema.com

 

[MiniC]

If even -60 is loud enough for you, your speakers must be very close to the mic position. Sorry I have to ask again, are you sure the volume was at -60, not 60? If you use the relative scale, that most prefer (I would think), its range should be about -79.5 to 18. If on the absolute scale then it is probably from 0 to 98, so if you are using the absolute scale, then 60 can be loud enough if you sit close to the speakers. Denon probably default to the absolute scale, in that case if you have not changed the setting, then you may in fact be seeing that and it would be 55 or 60, without the "-" sign.

As to the "same filtered freq till 201hz, I have no idea what you are referring, can you elaborate more on this.
Regardless, the 4800's has Audyssey XT32 Subeq HT, that can do a much better job with the bass range, than the 1300's Audyssey XT version. In the screenshot you included, there are a bunch of peaks in the 120 to 800 Hz range that does not look normal at all. Did you run Audyssey for all 8 positions, and did you follow instruction to the letter?

In addition to Denon's instruction in the owner's manual, you can pick up some tips on various websites, such as the following:

Simple Home Cinema - Simple, Clear, Concise Advice

Find out how to get the best out of you Audyssey receiver in this article by configuring Audyssey the Right Way!

simplehomecinema.com

This is distance of mic to the respective speakers. I think it’s considered a very small room.
Sorry. I got mixed up. So that’s absolute scale. it’s 55db.

This is the multieq filter freq range. i did it for all my speakers.


So i see for x4800h has made the 0-100hz flat vs x1300w. Just wondering if it’s normal. (Circled in yellow)


For the peaks from 120 to 800hz, it’s for both x1300w and x4800h?
I ran 8 positions for both avr, all within 60cm of position 1.
i got 3x lazyboy recliner in the room.
‘so I placed the mic on a tripod on the middle seat, and the recliner seats on the left & right.
The other 5 positions I’ve use a laser distance tool to get within 60cm of the position 1.
How does the correct room correction looks like? Thanks peng for advices.

After reading your posted link on Denon audyssey cal, all my 7 positions are about 50+cm from position 1.
From your link, it is Less than 30cm

 

[peng]

This is distance of mic to the respective speakers. I think it’s considered a very small room.
Sorry. I got mixed up. So that’s absolute scale. it’s 55db.
View attachment 285468
This is the multieq filter freq range. i did it for all my speakers.
View attachment 285469

So i see for x4800h has made the 0-100hz flat vs x1300w. Just wondering if it’s normal. (Circled in yellow)
View attachment 285470View attachment 285471

For the peaks from 120 to 800hz, it’s for both x1300w and x4800h?
I ran 8 positions for both avr, all within 60cm of position 1.
i got 3x lazyboy recliner in the room.
‘so I placed the mic on a tripod on the middle seat, and the recliner seats on the left & right.
The other 5 positions I’ve use a laser distance tool to get within 60cm of the position 1.
How does the correct room correction looks like? Thanks peng for advices.

After reading your posted link on Denon audyssey cal, all my 7 positions are about 50+cm from position 1.
From your link, it is Less than 30cm

Thank you, now it is clear. I think you should set the range to 600 Hz. You will likely hear more transparent sound as Audyssey will smooth off those very busy peaks in the 120 to 400 Hz range.

 

[MiniC]

Thank you, now it is clear. I think you should set the range to 600 Hz. You will likely hear more transparent sound as Audyssey will smooth off those very busy peaks in the 120 to 400 Hz range.

The simple homecinema link is very informative. Will redo the calibration in accordance to the distance recommended.
‘This is how the seating and my mic placement looks like.
So my positions 2-7 I actually maintained them to be between 50-60cm from position 1 using a laser distance tool.



I came across this statement. The height for all the 8points need to be varied?
I try to have exact same height for the 8positions.


I saw the secrets to Audyssey Guide.
I just got the guide.
Really Appreciate your help, peng.

After performing 8pt based on Tight1 pattern from the Audyssey guide And applying filter freq range till 600hz.

 

[canaiya]

Good morning, I currently have the 4700H model, do you find the change to the new 4800H model interesting? Thank you very much and greetings!

 

[ivo.f.doma]

The simple homecinema link is very informative. Will redo the calibration in accordance to the distance recommended.
‘This is how the seating and my mic placement looks like.
So my positions 2-7 I actually maintained them to be between 50-60cm from position 1 using a laser distance tool.

View attachment 285546

I came across this statement. The height for all the 8points need to be varied?
I try to have exact same height for the 8positions.
View attachment 285548

I saw the secrets to Audyssey Guide.
I just got the guide.
Really Appreciate your help, peng.

After performing 8pt based on Tight1 pattern from the Audyssey guide And applying filter freq range till 600hz.
View attachment 285580View attachment 285582

What is a microphone stand? Please link. I really like that he is not tall. Well thank you.

 

[peng]

The simple homecinema link is very informative. Will redo the calibration in accordance to the distance recommended.
‘This is how the seating and my mic placement looks like.
So my positions 2-7 I actually maintained them to be between 50-60cm from position 1 using a laser distance tool.

View attachment 285546

I came across this statement. The height for all the 8points need to be varied?
I try to have exact same height for the 8positions.
View attachment 285548

I saw the secrets to Audyssey Guide.
I just got the guide.
Really Appreciate your help, peng.

After performing 8pt based on Tight1 pattern from the Audyssey guide And applying filter freq range till 600hz.
View attachment 285580View attachment 285582

The distance between mic positions do not require laser accuracy, a couple inches +/- is fine. You may want to recline the couch and let the mic's height at least a little higher than the high backs of the couch.