To me, it just sounds like a slight tweaking of the "Direct" output by Denon. The 2600 came out in 2019 so, yes, a lot can happen in just 5 years (could be even fewer years if the 2800/3800/4800 behave the same)!
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Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review
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Have you tried LFE+M? You should have subwoofer output if you do, in direct mode. Audyssey will not work regardless, obviously. You likely can still set the crossovers but it would have no effects but this feature is still useful, just not as useful as if crossover settings still in effect. That's the only part I could no longer test because I got rid of both my 4400 and AV8801, though by memory, I was quite sure crossover settings worked when it's done in the 2Ch stereo playback menu that is not available in the lower series.
I read the manual and there's nothing in it that says you can't have subwoofer output. You don't necessarily need the DSP to have subwoofer output.
It does say:
That is a little vague, though the word "always" could be interpreted as including direct mode. You are going to have to test it out.
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DoctorRobert
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I am OK with the behavior of my AVR. I use the 'direct mode' for music that gets too 'boomy', maybe related to a mismatch between Audessey dynamic volume and mastering with too much dynamic compression. I just wanted to mention that @EWL5 description not fully matches my experience.
YMMV
DoctorRobert
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I am aware of that. The problem is that stereo music mastering is all over the place, even more so with radio streams. So I have a setting that seems to work with most music most of the time. And for times that I want something different (that can be because of my mood or because of the music; one cannot be sure), I use the available buttons. The highest 'reference level offset' is 15 dB. Sometimes I think that a 25 dB option would be nice. But again, that depends very much on the music (or my mood).
ban25
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Note that the poster is talking about a Stereo (2.0) source. When played in Direct mode, only the FR and FL channels will be active as no crossover will be applied and there is naturally no LFE channel in the source.
Robert-Hifi
Active Member
thank you @dlaloum for all your comments.
you gave me a good idea to test everything in stereo.
I have a NAD Purifi on my Hifi system, so I'm going to do a test protocol in stereo to see if, as you say, I can hear the difference.
- Denon 4800 alone
- Denon 4800 + Onkyo 5501
- Denon 4800 + NAD C298
my 48 year old ears might not hear the difference
I'm going to do this next week...
I'm really curious to your findings, especially if you hear any difference in the bass (authority and tightness of the bass).
No issue with the crossover part, I found, and stated the same he did.. My point was about the subwoofer out, he stated: "In direct and pure direct mode: with a stereo signal (2.0 or analog) as input, my subwoofer gets no signal" So, he was talking about the "LFE" channel info, that obviously would not be there for a 2.0 source, but my question for him was, did he try LFE+M? I am not sure about the X2600H, but it is quite possible that if he select LFE+M, he could get a signal from the subwoofer pre outs. The "M" is needed, precisely because there is no LFE signal when listening the 2.0 source.
I realized I forgot to delete the paragraph that I didn't mean to include in my "quotes", done now, thanks for your post that alerted me.
I believe lots of people don't mind a lot of bass, including somewhat boom ones, but I don't and obviously you don't either. In my experience, Audyssey does work well killing boomy bass effects, but probably over doing it. That's without considering the effects of DEQ. To really clean up the bass response, imo it is best to use REW and invest in the Umik-1 mic.
Here's an example of where boomy bass could be felt with Audyssey off, between around 53-60 Hz and 70-130 Hz:
Robert-Hifi
Active Member
I believe we talked about this before when I asked if a low damping factor could be the issue.
I mentioned the difference in bass authority and tightness between my Onkyo TX-NR906 and Denon AVC-X4800H.
Taking the Onkyo as reference and using REW with the UMIK-1 mic I tried to mimic the curve/frequency response in the bass as best as I could with the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App on a iPad.
Attachments
I don't know, maybe we did. People talked about DF a lot on forums. If too low, it could be a factor. How low is too low, is something I am not going to argue with anyone any more. There are plenty of facts and figures out there already, unfortunately some do get mixed with unreliable claims from misconceptions.
If you work on smoothing the 40-300 Hz range and reducing the apparent bump/room gain you may get better bass (in terms of the "boomy" thing). The graphs look not too bad but I noticed they are smoothed to 1/3 octave, so they may reveal much higher peaks, though hard to know without seeing the unsmoothed, or 1/24. That's regardless of DF, that typically won't be very high for AVR amps though likely "low enough" (audibly speaking, but for sure some die hard high DF believers will disagree and again I won't bother arguing with them).
Robert-Hifi
Active Member
Thanks for the advice. I've attached the unsmoothed graphs for you to have a look at.
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Thank you for that. People seem to like using oca's tool:
I have never tried that but I have had great results using the Editor app with Ratbuddyssey, that is also a freeware.
I can see that your X4800H is doing a reasonably job, vs the NR906. Not sure if the 906 have the same Audyssey version and whether everything (speakers, placements etc.).
If you use Ratbuddssey with the app, for sure you can minimize that suck out quite a bit. It could be time assuming, say a few hours.. Or if you post the REW graph, preferrable one with Audyssey disabled, along with the Editor's Ady file, I could do one trial edited target curve for you.
The thing is, if you like the ways the system sounds to you now, that would be great and you can just leave it alone. If you want to have smoother looking REW graphs, then it would hurt to spend a few hours on improving things.
In theory both the NR906 and the SR876 (I owned the latter) - had Audyssey XT32... as do the Denon's - so they should be the same.
However, there was no way of disabling MRC on these... or of adjusting the target curve... you got the Audyssey target and that was that.
comparison on my 4800 versus Purifi & Onkyo (class A/B) done (with my old ears):
well, you should know that I did the tests in "pure" stereo because I could change more quickly between amps.
I did this on my two Cinema THX front LCRs from Magnat:
listening in stereo with the Onkyo is already good but when you're used to listening to your system with all the speakers (and subs) it's really poor to go to stereo.
you should know that I have two systems: one stereo in my signature and the other in a dedicated room with the Magnat Cinema THX kit, 2 SVS SB3000 and the Denon/Onkyo pair in a semi-treated room.
I switch to stereo listening on the Denon only... it's flattering but I have an impression of narrowing with less bass.
now I'm switching to NAD Purifi.. it's magic! everything better: details, spacialization, bass...
I come back to the Onkyo, and the guy is doing pretty well. better than the Denon alone. I would say 90% of what I had with the Purifi.
now the problem is the volume differences, the visual of the amps, all these placebo effects and above all: all this without measurements (especially on this site).
as @dlaloum said I think I'll just move to the side with the Purifi. I'm really thinking about switching everything to Purifi but the price of a combo of 9 Purifi amps
thanks for your advices in any case
well, you should know that I did the tests in "pure" stereo because I could change more quickly between amps.
I did this on my two Cinema THX front LCRs from Magnat:
listening in stereo with the Onkyo is already good but when you're used to listening to your system with all the speakers (and subs) it's really poor to go to stereo.
you should know that I have two systems: one stereo in my signature and the other in a dedicated room with the Magnat Cinema THX kit, 2 SVS SB3000 and the Denon/Onkyo pair in a semi-treated room.
I switch to stereo listening on the Denon only... it's flattering but I have an impression of narrowing with less bass.
now I'm switching to NAD Purifi.. it's magic! everything better: details, spacialization, bass...
I come back to the Onkyo, and the guy is doing pretty well. better than the Denon alone. I would say 90% of what I had with the Purifi.
now the problem is the volume differences, the visual of the amps, all these placebo effects and above all: all this without measurements (especially on this site).
as @dlaloum said I think I'll just move to the side with the Purifi. I'm really thinking about switching everything to Purifi but the price of a combo of 9 Purifi amps
thanks for your advices in any case
No advices as such, but would love to see you compare them objectively, by measuring with REW and mic. I have done so many times and between all my amps, including one Purifi, one Hypex, AVRs etc., in pure direct mode, REW and Umik-1 mic could not tell a difference. As to my ears, hard to say, I can't be sure even after carefully matching level/volume, that my head/ears were in the exact positions lol..... So, I am convince, as you alluded to, subtle audible differences are always possible, with the influences of all sorts including the visible differences and Placebo effects, but I won't argue with anyone who insist on hearing "real" differences.comparison on my 4800 versus Purifi & Onkyo (class A/B) done (with my old ears):
well, you should know that I did the tests in "pure" stereo because I could change more quickly between amps.
I did this on my two Cinema THX front LCRs from Magnat:
listening in stereo with the Onkyo is already good but when you're used to listening to your system with all the speakers (and subs) it's really poor to go to stereo.
you should know that I have two systems: one stereo in my signature and the other in a dedicated room with the Magnat Cinema THX kit, 2 SVS SB3000 and the Denon/Onkyo pair in a semi-treated room.
I switch to stereo listening on the Denon only... it's flattering but I have an impression of narrowing with less bass.
now I'm switching to NAD Purifi.. it's magic! everything better: details, spacialization, bass...
I come back to the Onkyo, and the guy is doing pretty well. better than the Denon alone. I would say 90% of what I had with the Purifi.
now the problem is the volume differences, the visual of the amps, all these placebo effects and above all: all this without measurements (especially on this site).
as @dlaloum said I think I'll just move to the side with the Purifi. I'm really thinking about switching everything to Purifi but the price of a combo of 9 Purifi amps
thanks for your advices in any case
Two things are not debatable though, frequency response characteristics, and distortions. If one amp is pushed to near it's clipping point, distortions may be audible and they could make it sound better, or worse, depending on other factors.
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What purpose? Without being specific, you might be right, but may be not...
Robert-Hifi
Active Member
Thanks for the offer. I will have a look at A1 Evo first, but I've heard good things about it.
With Ratbuddssey I only loaded the .ady file to see what it offered, but haven't done anything with it yet.
Smoother looking REW graphs are nice, but I'm just looking for the bass authority and tightness of the Onkyo TX-NR906.
The Denon AVC-X4800H comes very close in how it sounds in comparison, just those two things have room for improvement.
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