Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[Zwepp]

Are there any measurements for the analog preamp section (analog in -> pre-out, direct mode)? I'm thinking of connecting a Wiim Pro Plus Ultra to the 4800H and via the pre-outs to a purifi power amp.

 

[peng]

I finally have some time to play with REW to try and see what the heck is the deal with Denon/Marantz stereo vs direct mode vs pure direct mode in terms of whether bass management would work in each mode.

As mentioned before, my Denon 4000 series and Marantz AV8801 are long gone, I know those can do the basic management in direct mode but to actually test it out with REW, I can only use my baby Denon, the AVR-X1800H. My findings were as follows:

Stereo and Direct mode:

Crossover settings does work in direct mode, exactly the same way, and same performance as Stereo mode, except of course in direct mode, Audyssey is disabled. So the subwoofer will work too obviously, though the AVR-X1800H does not have the 2ch stereo playback menu, I think only the AVR-X4800H, Cinema 40 and above have that feature.

Pure direct mode:

- Bass management, even the basic crossover settings will not work, you can still set it to whatever you want, but it would have no effects, based on the REW graphs.
- Subwoofer will not work, unless LFE is set to LFE+M
- Subwoofer will work with LFE set to LFE+M, but crossover settings would still have no effects.

I hope this help clarify some of those back and forth post last month in this thread. If there are any particular measurements to take, just let me know, I will leave the mic out for the next few days.

Note: Again, my findings are based on using my AVR-X1800H, though I am confident that if this entry level model can do it, the higher models should be able to do the same, likely more...

Edit: Forgot to mention that, again, the 18000 does not have the 2 ch stereo playback settings so for analog input sources and using direct mode/pure direct mode, the sub-out will work but it likely don't have any bass management. It's okay for me because I would naturally be using DLBC (that has bass management) if I use analog input with my ext. dacs.

 

[peng]

Are there any measurements for the analog preamp section (analog in -> pre-out, direct mode)? I'm thinking of connecting a Wiim Pro Plus Ultra to the 4800H and via the pre-outs to a purifi power amp.

For the 4800, he only did it in the 5 W output test, and he noted that he was getting ground loop from the blue channel, otherwise almost 93 dB SINAD is really good for AVR power amp output measured SINAD at 5 W.

In his review on the 4700, you can see that analog input pre out/dac output SINAD was about 96/97 dB, about the same as that for the HDMI output.

 

[Zwepp]

For the 4800, he only did it in the 5 W output test, and he noted that he was getting ground loop from the blue channel, otherwise almost 93 dB SINAD is really good for AVR power amp output measured SINAD at 5 W.

In his review on the 4700, you can see that analog input pre out/dac output SINAD was about 96/97 dB, about the same as that for the HDMI output.

View attachment 398030

Thanks! Must have overlooked the graph..

 

[peng]

Thanks! Must have overlooked the graph..

You are welcome, HTHF did do the analog input test:

Also identical results to Amir's one on the AVR-X4700H:

That means the X4800H's higher THD+N is most likely due to the TI DAC chip vs the AKM DAC chip.

 

[EWL5]

You are welcome, HTHF did do the analog input test:

View attachment 398309

Also identical results to Amir's one on the AVR-X4700H:

That means the X4800H's higher THD+N is most likely due to the TI DAC chip vs the AKM DAC chip.

View attachment 398310

Wow, that's a hot take! Maybe the AKM fire gave D&M an out from a multi-year contract as sole source provider for DACs or we'd still be wondering if AKM is as "velvety" as they say they are!

 

[peng]

Wow, that's a hot take! Maybe the AKM fire gave D&M an out from a multi-year contract as sole source provider for DACs or we'd still be wondering if AKM is as "velvety" as they say they are!

I guessed not, as he also did subjective measurements, referencing his AV7703 that obviously used the velvet sounded AK4458 lol..
Of course, I don't put much weight on subjective measurements, even if done by Dr. Rich, PhD., regardless.

Keep in mind that I usually use a separate power amplifier that can deliver more than 300 WPC into all 5 channels of these Axiom speakers and that I went from a $6,000 Marantz Preamp/Processor and Axiom ADA-1500-5 power amplifier to a $2,500 receiver.

The Denon was at least as clear in these scenes, if not more transparent, than with my Marantz 7703. Keeping in mind that there was no separate amplifier being used and that the receiver’s Audyssey processing was equalizing the subwoofers to their limits in terms of how deep they could go, the Denon did a credible job of extending this bass while keeping all the other audio effects pristine. If you are thinking about a system that can take full-range speakers into the 20 Hz range and don’t have room or possibly desire to have separate components, the Denon AVR-X4800H would be most helpful in reaching that goal.

Denon AVR-X4800H AV Receiver Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

The Denon AVR-X4800H AV Receiver takes its place in the competitive $2500 MSRP arena for home theater receivers. This is a price point at...

hometheaterhifi.com

 

[Miker 1102]

Thanks for the fast reply!

Because all my life I listen to music on AVR's, just sometimes when I watch movies, I connect the satelites, then long time I dont watch movies in that romm, and I detach the satelite speakers. Is it significant and audible the difference listening to music on AVR like X3600/x4800 to an AMP for the sme price range?

I didn't like it using the same settings as my 4500. Same room, Same Audyssey, Same equipment. It's my own subjective opinion but I went back to the 4500. If i upgrade again I am going to get one with better dacs..regardless of audibility.

I finally have some time to play with REW to try and see what the heck is the deal with Denon/Marantz stereo vs direct mode vs pure direct mode in terms of whether bass management would work in each mode.

As mentioned before, my Denon 4000 series and Marantz AV8801 are long gone, I know those can do the basic management in direct mode but to actually test it out with REW, I can only use my baby Denon, the AVR-X1800H. My findings were as follows:

Stereo and Direct mode:

Crossover settings does work in direct mode, exactly the same way, and same performance as Stereo mode, except of course in direct mode, Audyssey is disabled. So the subwoofer will work too obviously, though the AVR-X1800H does not have the 2ch stereo playback menu, I think only the AVR-X4800H, Cinema 40 and above have that feature.

Pure direct mode:

- Bass management, even the basic crossover settings will not work, you can still set it to whatever you want, but it would have no effects, based on the REW graphs.
- Subwoofer will not work, unless LFE is set to LFE+M
- Subwoofer will work with LFE set to LFE+M, but crossover settings would still have no effects.

I hope this help clarify some of those back and forth post last month in this thread. If there are any particular measurements to take, just let me know, I will leave the mic out for the next few days.

Note: Again, my findings are based on using my AVR-X1800H, though I am confident that if this entry level model can do it, the higher models should be able to do the same, likely more...

Edit: Forgot to mention that, again, the 18000 does not have the 2 ch stereo playback settings so for analog input sources and using direct mode/pure direct mode, the sub-out will work but it likely don't have any bass management. It's okay for me because I would naturally be using DLBC (that has bass management) if I use analog input with my ext.

I believe 2ch settings were in the 3800. I had only hooked it up twice. But that is where you can add a subwoofer. I also think you can use the spread feature for 2ch as well.
I assumed the crossover settings were still active on direct on my 4500 but thank you it was something I thought about.

 

[Zwepp]

Is there a way to trigger the X4800h to power on when music starts playing from an external device such as a Wiim Pro Plus?

 

[kyuu]

Is there a way to trigger the X4800h to power on when music starts playing from an external device such as a Wiim Pro Plus?

Will HDMI CEC not do that if you use the HDMI ARC connection?

 

[Zwepp]

Will HDMI CEC not do that if you use the HDMI ARC connection?

There's no HDMI out on the Wiim, and the TV is connected as the ARC device.

The Wiim Pro Plus does have a 12V trigger output, however the X4800H has no trigger inputs, only 3 trigger outputs.

 

[kyuu]

Oh dang it. Can't keep all these Wiim devices straight. That's right, only the Ultra has the HDMI.

 

[ban25]

Is there a way to trigger the X4800h to power on when music starts playing from an external device such as a Wiim Pro Plus?

If the Denon has signal sense, you may be able to use the optical SPDIF output from the Wiim to accomplish this.

 

[delamelon]

hello everyone,

Do you think my Onkyo PA-MC5501 gives better results (on paper) than the 4800 for surrounds?
I only have the manufacturers data unfortunately...

here are the specs of the Onkyo:

Dynamic Power
400 W (3 Ω, Front)
300 W (4 Ω, Front)
180 W (8 Ω, Front)

THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion+Noise)
0.05 % (20 Hz - 20 kHz, half power)

Damping Factor 60 (Front, 1 kHz, 8 Ω)
Input Sensitivity and Impedance1 V, 47 kΩ (Unbalanced)2 V, 22 kΩ (Balanced)
Frequency Response 5 Hz - 100 kHz/+1 dB, -3 dB (Unbalanced)
Signal to Noise Ratio 110 dB (Unbalanced, IHF-A)
Speaker Impedance 4 Ω - 16 Ω

thank you in advance, because I would like to remove the Onkyo and put Purifi on the LCRs.

 

[CapMan]

Mine is „DBYJ0124….“. Ordered in Nov. 2023 (listed as stock item) but delivered not before April 2024 (!). Lots of phone calls and visiting my dealer resulted in the statement that there were no X4800 available in my country at all from end of Nov. until March.

On the other hand: no issues so far. No humming, no rattling, no nothing that I am aware of.

My replacement 4800 is also 0124 - so far so good and keeping everything crossed. I'm delighted with it in spite of having to get it swapped. Dealer provides a 5 year warranty so all good.

 

[peng]

hello everyone,

Do you think my Onkyo PA-MC5501 gives better results (on paper) than the 4800 FOR surrounds?
I only have the manufacturers data unfortunately...

here are the specs of the Onkyo:

Dynamic Power
400 W (3 Ω, Front)
300 W (4 Ω, Front)
180 W (8 Ω, Front)

THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion+Noise)
0.05 % (20 Hz - 20 kHz, half power)

Damping Factor 60 (Front, 1 kHz, 8 Ω)
Input Sensitivity and Impedance1 V, 47 kΩ (Unbalanced)2 V, 22 kΩ (Balanced)
Frequency Response 5 Hz - 100 kHz/+1 dB, -3 dB (Unbalanced)
Signal to Noise Ratio 110 dB (Unbalanced, IHF-A)
Speaker Impedance 4 Ω - 16 Ω
thank you in advance, because I would like to remove the Onkyo and put Purifi on the LCRs.

I would say no practical advantage based on the fact that 2X output = only 3 dB more SPL, the Onkyo amp may be about 1 dB more, at best. That's power output, general audio specs are comparable but not really better, or worse.

 

[delamelon]

thank you for your answer @peng it confirms my idea..
I'm on vacation next week so I'm going to take the test. but what a hassle to make a comparison with Dirac between the two connection changes. :/

 

[dlaloum]

hello everyone,

Do you think my Onkyo PA-MC5501 gives better results (on paper) than the 4800 for surrounds?
I only have the manufacturers data unfortunately...

here are the specs of the Onkyo:

Dynamic Power
400 W (3 Ω, Front)
300 W (4 Ω, Front)
180 W (8 Ω, Front)

THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion+Noise)
0.05 % (20 Hz - 20 kHz, half power)

Damping Factor 60 (Front, 1 kHz, 8 Ω)
Input Sensitivity and Impedance1 V, 47 kΩ (Unbalanced)2 V, 22 kΩ (Balanced)
Frequency Response 5 Hz - 100 kHz/+1 dB, -3 dB (Unbalanced)
Signal to Noise Ratio 110 dB (Unbalanced, IHF-A)
Speaker Impedance 4 Ω - 16 Ω

thank you in advance, because I would like to remove the Onkyo and put Purifi on the LCRs.

From past experience, the flagship Onkyo amps are very good.... when I compared my SR876 or DTR70.4 to Crown XLS2500 and Quad 606 - all running stereo and powering the front L/R... There was no substantive difference between them.... (I did think there MIGHT have been a slightly smoother sound on the Quad 606.... but that could have been confirmation bias for my old favourite)

In the end I stuck to using the AVR internal amps, as it made for a simpler setup. The PA-MC5501 is a couple of steps up in the Onkyo/Integra range from what I had.

I would be surprised if you could hear a difference between the Purifi and the Onkyo.

Unless you have other drivers, not related to pure performance / audible improvement, I would not bother with that change... it would be a step sideways not a step upwards.

But definitely try it out if you can - that's why I purchased the Crown amps, I wanted to try the difference see whether there was indeed an audible difference.... there wasn't... (but without testing it myself, in my system, I would never have been satisfied.... and I got the Crown at a killer deal used!)

 

[dlaloum]

thank you for your answer @peng it confirms my idea..
I'm on vacation next week so I'm going to take the test. but what a hassle to make a comparison with Dirac between the two connection changes. :/

Yes - it takes quite a bit of time and effort to swap over amps and do a listening test + dirac tuning...

And keeping in mind that it is a subjective test.... and that Dirac does not always return consistent results (!!) - there are multiple non-identical possible mathematical solutions, and if measuring more than just the MLP, it is well nigh impossible to get perfectly matched measurement locations.... so there are a lot of confounding factors.

There is something to be said for straight through pure stereo, for this kind of test - then the only thing you need to adjust is levels/gain/SPL - and you can make a fair comparison.... then you can layer Dirac on top of whichever is your preferred final configuration.

 

[delamelon]

thank you @dlaloum for all your comments.

you gave me a good idea to test everything in stereo.
I have a NAD Purifi on my Hifi system, so I'm going to do a test protocol in stereo to see if, as you say, I can hear the difference.

- Denon 4800 alone
- Denon 4800 + Onkyo 5501
- Denon 4800 + NAD C298

my 48 year old ears might not hear the difference
I'm going to do this next week...