Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[Sal1950]

I have already brought the unit down to pack and ship. My back is killing me and I can't lift heavy things back and forth anymore (had to get my wife to carry it down). I don't know that I can add a ton of value with listening test anyway given the effort.

Take care with your back Amir, mine is so wasted it's hard to perform many simple daily tasks.
Hefting stuff like the JBL 3600's onto the turntable by yourself is libel to really F you up. Don't do it, get help.

 

[Webninja]

Take care of your back (from someone with a ruptured disc). Can you use a dolly to assist?

If not for the pandemic, you need an apprentice...

 

[amirm]

Thanks everyone. The back is out due to ton of garden work and equipment lifting. It is a very old injury that i normally have under control. But I let it be and is gotten to be a daily problem. So want to get it back to health before doing heavy lifting. Hopefully hasn't become something worse that I can't manage.

I do have a dolly with a moving platform now for heavy speakers with respect to measuring them.

 

[polmuaddib]

I got my 4500h yesterday. It replaced my Onkyo 5530 Pre/Pro, which I sold after seeing awfull review of Onkyo Z Pre/Pro (newer model then 5530), thinking that 4500 would perform like the praised 3600h. And the only reason i went with 4500 was Auro 3D (i hope it is worth it).
I know subjective doesn't matter much, but yesterday, when i plugged it in, i was unpleasently surprised by the quality of sound. It didn't come close to Onkyo. I was thinking that i will never trust measurements again and i am better off with subjectivist's recommendations (more expensive = better sound).
But, today i see 4700 measures poorly and now i think that 3600h was a fluke.
And conclusion for me in audio now is to never ever make assumptions and only buy measured product.
Also, i am losing my enthusiasm for Surround Music. I will probably leave avr for movies and listen to music in stereo.
Very dissapointed.

 

[audioBliss]

Great review that proves a very good point. Everyone that has been making generalisations about Denon and bashing other brands will now have to eat their words.

 

[50°F=Hellfire]

Another day, another awful AVR.

 

[fordiebianco]

Sigh.

I have one of these hulking things. I always had high hopes for my X-5200x, but I am disappointed that I fell for the marketing shenanigans and their previously good brand reputation. Looks like it's going to stay in storage until I have the space for a dedicated TV-room again, as 5.1 is rather fun.

 

[Krobar]

Does it seem odd to anyone else that the 4700h has Denonlink and the 6700h does not? It might indicate the 4700h is an update to an existing design where as the 6700h is more "clean sheet". It might also mean the 6700h will perform worse :/. One really interesting thing would be if ASR could investigate if DenonLink really does reduce Jitter (I assume you could play test tone for a Denon disc player).

 

[EB1000]

All of these measurement results are meaningless, as no human can tell the difference between an audio component that measures very well and one that measures terribly like this AVR. The Denon X4700H is not an "audiophile-grade" product. It is intended for home theater, meaning you're gonna use it to reproduce sounds of digitally synthesized machine guns, explosions, and dialog with some background music. For this use, you do not need anything that measures any better.

Honestly, all of these measurement reviews are a total waste of time. According to the measurement results posted here for the Yamaha RX-A1070 and NAD C658, they should sound like crap. I happen to own the C658 and the A1070's bigger bother: the RX-A2070, and they both sound great to me, way beyond my expectations...

Basically, any THD result below 1%, and any dynamic range or SINAD results above 80db, is overkill for any human! If you're smart enough not to think that power cables make any difference, then you shouldn't be obsessed with measurement results either...

 

[fordiebianco]

Basically, any THD result below 1%, and any dynamic range or SINAD results above 80db, is overkill for any human! If you're smart enough not to think that power cables make any difference, then you shouldn't be obsessed with measurement results either...

You alright, hon?

 

[SimpleTheater]

All of these measurement results are meaningless, as no human can tell the difference between an audio component that measures very well and one that measures terribly like this AVR. The Denon X4700H is not an "audiophile-grade" product. It is intended for home theater, meaning you're gonna use it to reproduce sounds of digitally synthesized machine guns, explosions, and dialog with some background music. For this use, you do not need anything that measures any better.

Honestly, all of these measurement reviews are a total waste of time. According to the measurement results posted here for the Yamaha RX-A1070 and NAD C658, they should sound like crap. I happen to own the C658 and the A1070's bigger bother: the RX-A2070, and they both sound great to me, way beyond my expectations...

Basically, any THD result below 1%, and any dynamic range or SINAD results above 80db, is overkill for any human! If you're smart enough not to think that power cables make any difference, then you shouldn't be obsessed with measurement results either...

I own a Yamaha RX-A3060 (and I like it) but have been anxiously waiting for a 13.2 AVR that measures well. And not just because I want the two extra channels (which I do), but because I can assure you I can hear the issues this AVR creates. While I have a dedicated stereo listening room, I have a few multi channel recordings that I like to listen to from time to time. My home theatre has quite a low sound floor (27 dB) and unfortunately I can pick up distortion* much better than the average person. Because of testing I know the issue isn’t my Oppo 203.

So count yourself lucky that you’re probably either average or below average in hearing distortion/noise, but because I’m unlucky I will continue to wait, and support ASR financially, as I wait** for a great sounding AVR.

* http://www.klippel-listeningtest.de/

**I won’t wait forever, if in the next 3 years this is still the norm I’ll compromise and pick up a Monoprice HTP-1 and an NAD M28.

 

[Xyrium]

That is really kind of it, yeah:
1) Because AVRs have issues, and so we're still trying to find some that are consistently good in every area, so their reviews are more interesting. "Yes, this is the 1000th DAC that is audibly transparent." is not interesting. We already know you can choose from hundreds of basic DACs that work great.
2) What good is a basic DAC, anyways? Solutions without room correction are boring/inferior, I would never listen to any system without it. And your 120 SINAD DAC does nothing if you put a 78 SINAD minidsp behind it. So for example I'd consider the miniDSP SHD to be better than anything with slightly better SINAD but without correction or at the very least PEQ. Yes, using a PC as a source with digital EQ and room correction is another way to go.
3) I enjoy surround music/Auro3D upmixing and I'm not going to build two completely separate signal chains for stereo and surround.
4) AVRs have tons of other useful functionality that people would like to use if it didn't involve serious compromises.

I'm with ya. I've considered AVRs for my office setup because of that all-in-one versatility. The fact that you get so many channels of decent power for so little $ is amazing.

The SINAD war can get old, pretty fast indeed. I believe it starts to come down to features. As you mention, getting a built in PEQ is definitely a boon, balanced outputs another, when it comes to DACs.

For AVRs, I would think most have these features, so performance needs to set them apart. That said, most of the flaws are probably inaudible I suppose, especially for watching a movie, since the mind would probably be distracted by the sound effects and the plot of the movie.

If only they could get those front two channels right, without requiring the user to jump through hoops in order to get there with a multitude of disabled features and settings.

 

[MZKM]

It doesn't make a difference:

View attachment 69630

Does anyone have a clue why the noise floor increases with the amps disengaged?

 

[Count De Money]

I shudder to think how the Lyngdorf processor stacks up

 

[MZKM]

All of these measurement results are meaningless, as no human can tell the difference between an audio component that measures very well and one that measures terribly like this AVR. The Denon X4700H is not an "audiophile-grade" product. It is intended for home theater, meaning you're gonna use it to reproduce sounds of digitally synthesized machine guns, explosions, and dialog with some background music. For this use, you do not need anything that measures any better.

Honestly, all of these measurement reviews are a total waste of time. According to the measurement results posted here for the Yamaha RX-A1070 and NAD C658, they should sound like crap. I happen to own the C658 and the A1070's bigger bother: the RX-A2070, and they both sound great to me, way beyond my expectations...

Basically, any THD result below 1%, and any dynamic range or SINAD results above 80db, is overkill for any human! If you're smart enough not to think that power cables make any difference, then you shouldn't be obsessed with measurement results either...

The main issue is that the performance compared to the year prior has gotten worse.

Yes, with content it is unlikely to hear issues. With test tones it would be easy to hear issues. So, wouldn’t you like to lower the level of likelihood of hearing these issues?

If a chef spits in your food, you most likely won’t taste the difference, but wouldn’t you not want the spit there in the first place?

 

[SimpleTheater]

The main issue is that the performance compared to the year prior has gotten worse.

Yes, with content it is unlikely to hear issues. With test tones it would be easy to hear issues. So, wouldn’t you like to lower the level of likelihood of hearing these issues?

If a chef spits in your food, you most likely won’t taste the difference, but wouldn’t you not want the spit there in the first place?

The other issue is noise/distortion is cumulative. Your source and your speakers will just add more issues. Since speakers are the worst in the chain, I want a chain where any issues I hear can be only the speakers problem.

 

[peng]

These products either lack performance requirements or don't hold engineering to them.

I was considering replacing an older Onkyo used as a preamp with the X3700H. That is now on-hold.

Thanks for another great review.

- Rich

The volume control IC has tolerances that may explain why DUTs could measure differently in SINAD by a few dB, though there is definitely something wrong with the noise behavior when HDMI is involved in this case.

Below are the tolerances of SINADs between the volume IC used in the Denon/Marantz and Yamaha's AVRs/AVPs/Integrated amp:

Yamaha A-S801:
BD3483KS2........................... Typ. 0.0004 %, Max. 0.02 %

RX-A3070:
BD34703KS2........................ Typ. 0.0004 %, Max. 0.02 %

Denon/Marantz:
NJU72343AV........................ Typ. 0.0004 %, Max. 0.01 %

The DAC ICs ES9010KS2, AK4458, ES9006 used in such devices all have slightly better SINAD specs so as Dr. Rich of HTHF said before, the volume control IC was usually the bottleneck.

If true (Amir, do you have any opinion on this?), and if you look at the X4700H's SINAD, it is still within the tolerance spec of the NJU72343, and obviously the AK4458 as well.

Also, take a look of Denon AVR/Marantz AVP/AVR publish specs:

AV8805/AV7705's preout..................0.005 %, (that's 86 dB in SINAD)

AVR-X4500H/SR7013
amplifier output....................................0.05 % at rated output
analog input (Direct mode)..............0.005 % (again, that's 86 dB SINAD) at 1.2 V
D/A output..............................................0.008% (1 kHz, at 0 dB)

AVR-X3600H/SR6014
amplifier output....................................0.08% at rated output
analog input (Direct mode)..............0.005 % (again, that's 86 dB SINAD) at 1.2 V
D/A output..............................................0.008% (1 kHz, at 0 dB)

Based on the above figures, so far all the units ASR has measured were within D+M specifications, though depending on interpretation, the D/A output specs would have met or exceeded their specifications only if the internal power amps were disconnected.

Amir, or others who have read the spec sheets and SM's, any comments?

My source of info above were all Googleable, i.e. Rohm, NJR published data sheets for their volume control ICs, D+M's manual.

 

[peng]

Extremely comprehensive review @amirm

I too share your disappointment that CD performance metrics from nearly 4 decades ago are not approached, letalone met. And yet they proudly have a sticker on the front panel trumpeting their legacy since 1910:

View attachment 69620

No doubt there are Nippon Columbia/Denon pioneering engineers turning in their graves right now.

I am curious to know which Denon, or even Marantz products from 4 decades ago that had their SINAD measured higher than the current mid range model, the AVR-X4700H, or you just exaggerated a little to make a point?

 

[dorirod]

My back is killing me and I can't lift heavy things back and forth anymore (had to get my wife to carry it down).

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/humor/chauvinist-men/images/Greek Couple.jpg

 

[peng]

Since the trend rather seems to be that SINAD of the preamp section drops with each new generation my old Marantz AV7701 looks better and better with each new review.

I have seen no evidence of that so far so I don't think we need to worry about that at all. For one thing, the AV7701 had an inferior LSI chip for volume control, making it almost a certainty that if measured by ASR, its SINAD would be worse than that of the AV7705, and the AV7705, measured worse than the AVR-X4500H in (SINAD anyway) and worse than the AVR-X3600H across the board so the evidence seems to support the opposite, that is, the SINAD of the preamp section likely have improved with the newer generation, than the AV7705 and models prior.