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Many just accept RC as, "it knows what's it's doing" and sales professionals reinforce that thought.
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Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)
- Thread starter amirm
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Read the Denon 4700 review and compare it to the Denon 3800 review. You see performance has been degraded by 10db on SINAD, reduced pre-amp measurements, distortion sets in earlier than 3700/4700, degraded linearity, 32 tone measurements worse than 3700/4700, Basically, the 3800 is a step back in measurements at almost every step of the ASR review compared to 3700/4700 and a lot of that has to do with replacing the AKM with a lower performing chip. At the same time Denon increased price dramatically. With not much different besides four sub pre-outs and including AURO-3D that was already on the 4700. I would never pay $1000 more for a 4800 than an existing 4700. Not enough difference to justify price.
Denon AVR-X3800H Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699. Not much to say about the look of the unit as it is pretty much similar/same as last generations. Here is the back panel...
www.audiosciencereview.com
I agree, I have seen a number of posts from Peng, and appreciate his knowledge. The other question I have and it is also subjective. I sold my setup with my home so I am replacing everything. I had a Marantz SR8015 an early one. I am using the same LCR Speakers but upgrading my surrounds 4 of them with Martin logan XTC8-HT's I also am adding an ATI-AT1823 amp for the LCR. I was hoping to save a little on the AVR but know with the Sinad issue and down grade, I am a little unsure as to which unit to buy. I have been reading a tone of posts and watching YouTube reviews like. Andrew Robinson and his Cinama 50 review when he compares it with his SR8015 and says musically and suround quality it is very close to the SR8015 and he would save the money and go with the Cinema 50. At the say time he ranked the RZ50 a close second and put the Denon 3800 3rd and also said he had trouble with the switching on the Denon. I would like to see testing on the 4800 and Cinema 40 when they become available.
Thanks
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Read the Denon 4700 review and compare it to the Denon 3800 review. You see performance has been degraded by 10db on SINAD, reduced pre-amp measurements, distortion sets in earlier than 3700/4700, degraded linearity, 32 tone measurements worse than 3700/4700, Basically, the 3800 is a step back in measurements at almost every step of the ASR review compared to 3700/4700 and a lot of that has to do with replacing the AKM with a lower performing chip. At the same time Denon increased price dramatically. With not much different besides four sub pre-outs and including AURO-3D that was already on the 4700. I would never pay $1000 more for a 4800 than an existing 4700. Not enough difference to justify price.
Denon AVR-X3800H Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699. Not much to say about the look of the unit as it is pretty much similar/same as last generations. Here is the back panel...
Are we sure the degradation is just the DAC? I ask as the x6700h with the new DAC had a SINAD of 100 and is at the top of the AVR chart.
where did you get that. all x700h AVRs were reviewed here before the fire, so they were with AKM DAC. The Updated part means the first review samples were with a faulty capacitor, Amir did work with Denon engineering, and he re-reviewed the "fixed" sample.
My bad. For some reason I was thinking the capacitor issue happened when they did the hdmi fix and changed the DAC. looks like I remembered wrong.
Eh, at low to moderate volume, my new 4700 doesn't seem to be putting out enough juice to keep my subwoofer on via its signal sensing feature. Should I raise the sub level in the AVR and turn down the volume knob on the sub? I think I now have the sub volume knob at about the mid point.
Guys, I'm in the same boat....but in my case the comparison is a newer 4700 vs a 3800. I actually bought the 3800 but have not yet opened the box. Local stores still have the 4700's but is the thought that these newer builds will not have the AKM chip? If that's the case is the 4700 still the smarter choice? I got the 3800 for $1,350 and the 4700 is now going for $1,499. I just want the best I can get.
The new 4700 has not been tested at ASR. It is expected to have lower SINAD ratings but you may still enjoy it. If I was deciding between the new 3800 and a new 4700 (without AKM) my decision would be based on features.
4700
1. Offers 2 line display vs one line on 3800
2. Offers HDMI on front for easy access - not on 3800
3. Small amount of additional amp watts but likely not noticeable.
4. Metal front plate versus plastic.
5. Better remote.
3800
1. Offers possibility of DIRAC once available at a substantial fee (most will not need it)
2. You know how poor the ASR measurements are - no guessing.
3. Offers two additional amp assign pre-out mode options.
It's likely both units will sound comparable. So pick the one with the features you want.
4700
1. Offers 2 line display vs one line on 3800
2. Offers HDMI on front for easy access - not on 3800
3. Small amount of additional amp watts but likely not noticeable.
4. Metal front plate versus plastic.
5. Better remote.
3800
1. Offers possibility of DIRAC once available at a substantial fee (most will not need it)
2. You know how poor the ASR measurements are - no guessing.
3. Offers two additional amp assign pre-out mode options.
It's likely both units will sound comparable. So pick the one with the features you want.
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Thanks for the input. Based on that it seems like the 4700 is the better choice for me. I was originally swayed by the 3800 being a couple of years newer. I think I'm going return the 3800 and get the 4700.
ban25
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FWIW, I would easily choose the 3800 over the 4700 in order to have 5 extra HDMI 2.1 (8K/4K120) inputs, but YMMV.
it almost correlates that newer revision has TI DAC AND fixes the HDMI board. so you have to pick your poison (although to be fair the HDMI issue can be remedied and if you are not using XSX it does not matter much)
it's also almost guaranteed that you will get updated revision if you buy new now, especially from Denon directly. Some retailers might still have old revision in stocks (check for serial number, the last 5 digit would be less than 70001 if it's old version)
ban25
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Additionally, the 3800H has a 1080p OSD instead of the ancient 480p one on the previous generations.
The 4700 has a separate setup option for 2-way audio. Works perfect for me. I don't know whether the 3800 has this, the 3700 certainly not. DIRAC I consider overkill for my setup against the amount of fee you still need to pay. The TI-DAC's; actually against what everyone on this forum is assuming, 7 TI-DAC's are more expensive than 2 AKM's. Also the implementation of this solution supposedly provides better channel separation. Yes I know the figures compared to AKM are worse... The best thing of the 3800 are the individual switch-off's for each of the 9 amp's. I like the look of the 4700 better because of the flap hiding some of the options.
One correction - the 3800 does not allow each amp to switch off individually. Instead, it adds two more pre-out configurations instead of just Fronts or full pre-out mode on the 4700. If you buy a 3800 thinking each amp can be turned off individually you will be disappointed. See the 3800 manual page 202 for details.
From 3800 Manual:
This setting can be set when using 10 channels or more, including the Floor Speaker, Height Speaker and Dolby Speaker.
The info below explains how to connect the speaker terminals and PRE OUT connectors for your “Amp Assign” setting on the 3800 menu screen.
* The name of the speaker is displayed that is set for the HEIGHT 2 or SURROUND BACK speaker terminals by the “Height” - “Layout” setting in the menu.
From 3800 Manual:
This setting can be set when using 10 channels or more, including the Floor Speaker, Height Speaker and Dolby Speaker.
The info below explains how to connect the speaker terminals and PRE OUT connectors for your “Amp Assign” setting on the 3800 menu screen.
| FRONT (Default): The Front left and right preamplifier outputs are connected to an external amplifier. |
| The Height2 left and right preamplifier HEIGHT 2: outputs are connected to an external amplifier. |
| The Surround Back left and right SURROUND BACK: preamplifier outputs are connected to an external amplifier. |
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According to #76 and #88 of https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3800h-review.38574/ it is possible to turn the amps off. See the picture in #88
This is news to me. I have read a lot about the new avr's and the lower quality DAC's. I had not read that there is 7 of them in the 3800 vs 2 AKM's in the 3700. 7 of the TI-DAC's should have some benefit but I would not know what that would be. Can anyone confirm this and will the 4800 or the Cinema 40 also have 7 or will they have more?
It is quite simple; the TI PCM 5102A DAC’s are 2-channel DAC’s. In total you have 11 channels + 2 sub-channels makes 13. Hence 7 DAC’s. The author of this article; https://www.audionet.com.tw/thread-13948-1-1.html confirms the vertically mounted, in between 2 main, board is for the DAC’s. This is for the Marantz SR7015 which has almost identically lay-out compared to the Denon 3700 and 4700 apart from the AMP-section. DAC-section is similar.
Translated;
The vertical circuit board here is the 11.2-channel digital-to-analog conversion circuit of this machine. It is quite different from most surround amplifiers. The DAC performs multi-channel digital conversion. The upper and lower sides of this circuit board are directly connected to the digital main board and the pre-amplification circuit board, so it is also a "connection board". The design of the vertical digital conversion circuit board can not only reduce the signal path The length can also reduce the number of contacts through which the signal passes, which helps to improve the transmission quality.
Before disassembling the machine, I already guessed where the digital-to-analog conversion circuit board of SR7015 is installed. After disassembling the machine, I took a closer look, oh! It is different from the previous practice: Marantz used "two" Asahi Kasei 32-bit "8-channel" digital conversion chip AK4458VN in the middle and high-priced surround amplifiers of Marantz before, but this time it used "7 pieces of two Channel number conversion chip "TI (Burr-Brown) PCM5102A, is it possible that Marantz really wants to make its own surround amplifier completely compare with two-channel audio equipment? In fact, this is a change design made for "contingency".
If you go to the official website of Marantz to check SR7015, you will see information that it uses two AK4458VNs. This is the status of SR7015 "just launched abroad". However, due to the Asahi Kasei fire and the tight chip manufacturing, Marantz has previously announced that it will adjust some models. The DAC chip used, also said that changing the design will not affect the sound quality. Will it really not change? In terms of pure component performance, the dynamic range and distortion rate of PCM5102A are slightly inferior to AK4458VN. However, in terms of circuit structure, I think that a group of 2 channels (using PCM5012A) will be better than a group of 8 channels (using AK4458VN). Higher channel separation, this is the benefit of "dual-channelization".
There are pictures of the interior of the 3700 on ASR confirming this. This lay-out is applied also in the high-end 8500. The difference being better AKM and later ESS DAC’s having better spec’s, be it outside our human ability to hear the difference. I don’t want to challenge the ASR-die hards who claim they can…. Please read other fora as well.
I can confirm the PCM 4700, subjectively, sounds great. Combined with a Marantz MM7025 power amp it handles everything I throw at it. Both multi-channel movie sound as well as stereo for music. As mentioned above; especially the ability to setup specific setup for two channel sound is great.
Still, if you don’t play Xbox you could try and find a 4700 with AKM DAC’s if that sets you at ease. I really would like to have both versions tested not only on ‘objective‘ measured SINAD figures but also on other criteria like how both machines handle multi channel as well as stereo sound.
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I made the same point in the early days when rumors on which IC they would use to replace the AKM one, that I couldn't believe they would actually use the most rumored 5102A at the time, because it would cost them more (one would think.., but I guess not..) overall for switching from 8ch to 2ch ICs.
I have never read anything technical that supports better separation regarding 2ch vs 4ch vs 8ch dac chips. It is understandable why some people would think that because it does sound logical, such as monoblock amps must be better than stereo amps. Some of the dac ICs that have the best specs are 2, 4, or 8 channel ones. We don't know why D+M switched to the PCM5102A, I hate to guess, but the logical explanation would be availability at the time and that IC being so old, they might have been able to get a sweet deal from TI. Those PCM 5100 series ICs were previously found for use in zone 2. I am not aware the PCM5100 series used in any external dacs except may be those in the $30 to $80 range, even in that low price range, it would be hard to find one.
Still, the in Onkyo the PCM 1690 scores 98 dB SINAD on one channel and 9700 on the other where it can only reach 94 according to spec’s. And there is only one of them in the Onkyo’s and Pioneers (7100, 305, 505) so all 8 channels used… They even use the 5101 DAC’s for the 9th and 10th channel for extra zone’s. Anyway if you look to the inner of these machines, you can see no separate DAC board. No one is complaining about it…whereas Denon/Marantz is being hammered. Of course you always want the best components available but I think they did a good job and dealt with the AKM situation in an acceptable way. And again; this forum is ‘famous’ for basing scores on ‘hard‘ figures and less on ‘sound’. And of course, maybe the 3700 and 4700 with PCM DAC’s could ‘over-score’ as well. You still remember the alternative measures and performance of the 1690 and 5100 DAC’s in the Denon 800… From sound and engineering perspective the Denon’s look waaay better than Onkyo’s and Pioneer’s .
