Direct, Pure Direct & Stereo with Audyssey by-pass

[Dennis_FL]

If you have a mike and the REW App you can measure the difference.

 

[apexkingjusto]

Check Setup, Audio, Audyssey, MultEQ XT32, here you should be able to switch from Reference to L/R Bypass, or Flat, and Off. L/R Bypass might work for what you are trying to do. I use L/R Bypass when playing 2 channel music but I want to engage my subs and Audyssey only on the bass,

Wow that’s so obvious and yet I can’t believe I never realized this use case! Thank you.

 

[apexkingjusto]

A bit off topic, but one point of caution for others on functionality. I recently added a WIIM Pro and SMSL D100 DAC. While there is clearly a nice improvement in sound and better functionality with Tidal direct, you loose the nicely integrated HEOS capabilities of switching the receiver source and controlling receiver volume. This was my old issue w Sonos connect and I created some crazy Harmony macros that I tied into wall mounted buttons for my wife.

I’m exploring some other options now as alternatives and if I come up with something will post a separate thread.

Tying this back to the topic…

I use two monoblocks for fronts, if it wasn’t for the Audyssey and sub integration I would probably just bypass the receiver.

 

[Thomas_A]

Bringing up a question for clarification in this old thread.

If I set "direct/pure direct" on my MarantzI I get subwoofer output when speakers are set to "small" and sub to "LFE+main". What I don't understand is whether the crossover is set in the analogue domain? Can this be true, since you can choose crossover frequency?

 

[Thomas_A]

Bringing up a question for clarification in this old thread.

If I set "direct/pure direct" on my MarantzI I get subwoofer output when speakers are set to "small" and sub to "LFE+main". What I don't understand is whether the crossover is set in the analogue domain? Can this be true, since you can choose crossover frequency?

Anybody have a clue?

 

[Dennis_FL]

Anybody have a clue?

I asked something similar a while back. I remember that question was asked and answered somewhere in the forums and I do believe it is analog -- there are cheap analog filters you can buy to limit frequencies to your sub, for instance.

Over at the Audyssey forum I got a non-answer that some testers have converted Analog to digital and visa versa hundreds of times with no effect on the audio. And to boot, they claim the benefit of room correction far outweighs any perceived degradation in signal.

Stop worrying they said.

I subsequently sold my Marantz and now go straight from the DAC to my amp. I do room correction with Roon and wired the sub high level in parallel with the speaker.

 

[Thomas_A]

I asked something similar a while back. I remember that question was asked and answered somewhere in the forums and I do believe it is analog -- there are cheap analog filters you can buy to limit frequencies to your sub, for instance.

Over at the Audyssey forum I got a non-answer that some testers have converted Analog to digital and visa versa hundreds of times with no effect on the audio. And to boot, they claim the benefit of room correction far outweighs any perceived degradation in signal.

Stop worrying they said.

I subsequently sold my Marantz and now go straight from the DAC to my amp. I do room correction with Roon and wired the sub high level in parallel with the speaker.

I might be so but it seems quite odd with an analogue filter having optional crossover settings.

 

[peng]

Anybody have a clue?

I posted the following before, pasted from:

Denon AVR-5805 AV Receiver Review

The Denon AVR-5805 A/V receiver features 4 zones (two with independent surround sound and HDMI support) and 10 amplifier channels. In our review, we found it to be a one box whole home audio solution.

www.audioholics.com

That's obviously for the ex flagship Denon AVR, the likes of the AVR-X3800/4800H, A1H, SR8015, C40/50 may do it in different ways, but what Gene found on the 5805 did confirm Denon did it in the analog domain in that particular case. Other than that old example, thanks to Amir, we do know it is a fact that based on his measurements on more than one Denon AVR, there were no AD/DA conversion if analog inputs are used, and in direct/pure direct mode. Marantz customer support has also told me the same, and I have also posted their response before.

The light blue trace represents analog output frequency response of the main channels via analog input signal with no bass management applied. The green trace represents the bass management applied with a crossover setting of 80Hz. Notice that no A/D to D/A conversion stage took place to apply bass management as indicated by the lack of brickwall filter response at high frequencies. At first, I didn't understand this until I pinged Denon and they informed me of a completely independent bass management system done in the analog domain to ensure a true analog signal path was maintained. Audiophiles and fanatics can rejoice. Now you can have a true analog bypass with proper bass management (if needed). This is a truly incredible and thoughtful feature.

Note About Pure Direct Mode
When configuring Pure Direct mode, I recommend setting it to the "Basic" bass management option first so it copies the front channel distances that were established during auto setup. Afterwards, you can select "Custom" if you desire to change the crossover setting or even the distance compensation. Note however that distance compensation in Pure Direct mode and all modes for that matter can be fine tuned to 0.1ft increments if you enable this accuracy in the main speaker distance set-up menus, otherwise it will default to 1ft resolution (the typical limit of most costlier processors).

 

[Albert Dagger]

I have a 5.0.2 system, where the front speakers are set to large. I don't use Audissey, restorer, and other forms of sound processing.
In this case, I would assume that there should be no difference between the "Stereo" mode and the "Direct" or "Pure Direct" modes.

I have no way to verify this assumption through measurements, but it would be great if any of you know if this aspect has been considered in some reviews of Denon AVRs . From what I have read in review threads, measurements are generally done using the analogue in and direct mode. So it would be great to know the difference between stereo and direct if no processing is active (no sub, etc.). My Denon is a x6400h.

 

[peng]

I have a 5.0.2 system, where the front speakers are set to large. I don't use Audissey, restorer, and other forms of sound processing.
In this case, I would assume that there should be no difference between the "Stereo" mode and the "Direct" or "Pure Direct" modes.

I have no way to verify this assumption through measurements, but it would be great if any of you know if this aspect has been considered in some reviews of Denon AVRs . From what I have read in review threads, measurements are generally done using the analogue in and direct mode. So it would be great to know the difference between stereo and direct if no processing is active (no sub, etc.). My Denon is a x6400h.

Amir has verified that in one of his review, that is exactly as you are alluding to, that by using analog inputs, in stereo mode it will bypass the ADC/DSP/DAC as long as you don't use bass management, and/or any DSP functions. I'll try to find you that review, time permitting.

 

[Albert Dagger]

Amir has verified that in one of his review, that is exactly as you are alluding to, that by using analog inputs, in stereo mode it will bypass the ADC/DSP/DAC as long as you don't use bass management, and/or any DSP functions. I'll try to find you that review, time permitting.

Thanks for confirming @peng .
It would be interesting to investigate whether the same behaviour applies to other non analogue stereo sources, such as HEOS, AirPlay or HDMI.

I play most of my library via an Intel Nuc with Kodi, through HDMI and wasapi in exclusive mode. in this way, I’m forced to use HDMI. Stereo and direct sound the same to my ears, but I know this doesn’t mean anything without measurements.

Anyway, just curious to better understand how Denon AVRs handle this internal processing.

 

[ban25]

Thanks for confirming @peng .
It would be interesting to investigate whether the same behaviour applies to other non analogue stereo sources, such as HEOS, AirPlay or HDMI.

I play most of my library via an Intel Nuc with Kodi, through HDMI and wasapi in exclusive mode. in this way, I’m forced to use HDMI. Stereo and direct sound the same to my ears, but I know this doesn’t mean anything without measurements.

Anyway, just curious to better understand how Denon AVRs handle this internal processing.

If you have a digital source, it has to go through the DAC...

 

[peng]

I have a 5.0.2 system, where the front speakers are set to large. I don't use Audissey, restorer, and other forms of sound processing.
In this case, I would assume that there should be no difference between the "Stereo" mode and the "Direct" or "Pure Direct" modes.

I have no way to verify this assumption through measurements, but it would be great if any of you know if this aspect has been considered in some reviews of Denon AVRs . From what I have read in review threads, measurements are generally done using the analogue in and direct mode. So it would be great to know the difference between stereo and direct if no processing is active (no sub, etc.). My Denon is a x6400h.

A) If you use digital inputs, and if you don't use DSP functions such as Audyssey and any other forms of SP, then there should be no difference but I don't think Amir has actually confirmed that under such condition it will measure as good as direct and pure direct mode. He did confirm once that there is no difference in the measurements between direct and pure direct mode. B) If you use analog inputs, then there is also no difference but as soon as you use any DSP functions, the signal will be routed through the ADC, DSP and DAC.

In the case of A), different or not, why not just use direct mode?

Anyway, below are findings by Amir, at least that's what I could find:

I have been testing Denon AVR amplifiers using CD input which I have found to not be digitized allowing us to see the true performance the amplifier rather than any processing blocks. Question has been raised as to what happens when you turn on signal processing such as bass management. Here is the answer:

The answer is naturally, the AVR will digitize such analog signals the moment you do that. As it should. Fortunately the Pure Direct button overrides that as show in red graph. Digitization is at high sample rate of 96 kHz which is nice. Note that level changes a bit so be careful if you are doing AB tests.

Note that he mentioned CD input, but it will be the same for any analog line level inputs. Again, that's for analog inputs. I couldn't find any test/measurements that compare stereo and direct mode using digital inputs. I suspect any difference in SINAD will be within a few dB +/-, mostly due to noise, maybe..

 

[Albert Dagger]

A) If you use digital inputs, and if you don't use DSP functions such as Audyssey and any other forms of SP, then there should be no difference but I don't think Amir has actually confirmed that under such condition it will measure as good as direct and pure direct mode. He did confirm once that there is no difference in the measurements between direct and pure direct mode. B) If you use analog inputs, then there is also no difference but as soon as you use any DSP functions, the signal will be routed through the ADC, DSP and DAC.

In the case of A), different or not, why not just use direct mode?

Anyway, below are findings by Amir, at least that's what I could find:



Note that he mentioned CD input, but it will be the same for any analog line level inputs. Again, that's for analog inputs. I couldn't find any test/measurements that compare stereo and direct mode using digital inputs. I suspect any difference in SINAD will be within a few dB +/-, mostly due to noise, maybe..

Thank you.

 

[Thomas_A]

With respect to the typical slow filter of the Marantz ADC/DAC it seems to be disabled when using analogue input both in direct AND in auto mode of the NR1510. So some questions remain; is there someone that actually have measured the mains output of all combinations of settings?

Analog in, subwoofer yes, crossover 80 Hz:
- Auto/direct mode
- Small/large speakers
- LFE/LFE+main
- Audyssey L/R bypass/calibrated

 

[peng]

With respect to the typical slow filter of the Marantz ADC/DAC it seems to be disabled when using analogue input both in direct AND in auto mode of the NR1510. So some questions remain; is there someone that actually have measured the mains output of all combinations of settings?

Analog in, subwoofer yes, crossover 80 Hz:
- Auto/direct mode
- Small/large speakers
- LFE/LFE+main
- Audyssey L/R bypass/calibrated

I wish I have one to measure. Do you have a mic to use with REW?

 

[Thomas_A]

I wish I have one to measure. Do you have a mic to use with REW?

Yes. I've planned however to do a more thorough analysis of the NR1710 but have not yet had the time. Christmas Holidays ahead though...

 

[peng]

Yes. I've planned however to do a more thorough analysis of the NR1710 but have not yet had the time. Christmas Holidays ahead though...

You brought up this interesting point. Thanks to Amir, he found that even in stereo mode, if you don't touch (not his exact words, so see quote below) bass management, analog input signal will still bypass ADC/DAC. May be that's what you are seeing.

I have been testing Denon AVR amplifiers using CD input which I have found to not be digitized allowing us to see the true performance the amplifier rather than any processing blocks. Question has been raised as to what happens when you turn on signal processing such as bass management. Here is the answer:

The answer is naturally, the AVR will digitize such analog signals the moment you do that. As it should. Fortunately the Pure Direct button overrides that as show in red graph. Digitization is at high sample rate of 96 kHz which is nice. Note that level changes a bit so be careful if you are doing AB tests.

I think before he confirmed the above, he always use CD input for his analog tests, thinking that was the reason for the signal to remain analog without getting digitized by the internal ADC/DAC, when in fact for Denon/Marantz AVRs, CD, aux, video etc. analog inputs work the same way, that is, to ensure no digitization, use direct/pure direct mode, or stereo without using bass management functions, the latter was Amir's great find, that is just another undocumented (by D+M) feature.

 

[Thomas_A]

You brought up this interesting point. Thanks to Amir, he found that even in stereo mode, if you don't touch (not his exact words, so see quote below) bass management, analog input signal will still bypass ADC/DAC. May be that's what you are seeing.



I think before he confirmed the above, he always use CD input for his analog tests, thinking that was the reason for the signal to remain analog without getting digitized by the internal ADC/DAC, when in fact for Denon/Marantz AVRs, CD, aux, video etc. analog inputs work the same way, that is, to ensure no digitization, use direct/pure direct mode, or stereo without using bass management functions, the latter was Amir's great find, that is just another undocumented (by D+M) feature.

Amirs test was with HDMI input?

 

[peng]

Amirs test was with HDMI input?

No, that was for analog input. I thought you are talking about analog inputs right? Sorry if I misread your post. I might have been confused because you did write:

Analog in, subwoofer yes, crossover 80 Hz:
- Auto/direct mode
- Small/large speakers
- LFE/LFE+main
- Audyssey L/R bypass/calibrated

Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of Denon AVR-X3700H 9.2 channel 8K Home Theater AV Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a local member and costs US $1,199. Visually, if you have seen one AVR, you have seen the look of the AVR-X3700H: The input selector is plastic and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Under the heading:

AVR Amplifier Measurements