Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[dlaloum]

no, BBC dip is based on how human react to the frequency. human likes BBC dip so speaker is designed to match that dip. Not other way around. of course, you can design or move the dip anywhere, that does not mean human like that non-BBC dip.

Audyssey Midrange Compensation – On or Off? – Denon and Marantz Receivers

Should you turn Midrange Compensation on or off? How do you know if your speakers need it? Let’s find out!

simplehomecinema.com

" Since our ears are extra sensitive in this region to frequency and phase shifts, speaker crossovers between tweeters and midrange drivers can create harshness if this dip is not introduced. This can especially affect voices and therefore can be distracting."

1) the human ear is especially sensitive within that frequency range
2) this is a common frequency at which crossovers are often located
3) The crossover generated distortions are then interpreted by our ear as harshness - hence the BBC specified a dip at this frequency to reduce the harshness...BUT - this harshness only happens IF a crossover is located in that frequency range. - if there is no crossover, or the crossover is at a different frequency, then you bear the audible cost of the dip, without any of the benefits

 

[peng]

And the BBC dip reduces that range - resulting in dailogue clarity issues.... no surprises

As usual, the Simplehomecinema.com site did not disappoint!

I would add that for those who want to know the real reasons for the BBC dip in the 1960'/70's, they can try and get an answer from the horse's mouth, such as those directly involved, example:

Harbeth Technology - Harbeth

Harbeth has a long history of technological innovation in its pursuit of the perfect loudspeaker.

harbeth.co.uk

May be @amirm can get an answer from Alan Shaw, or interview him.

and/or join the debates in threads (there must be a few) such as the following:

Gundry Dip or BBC Dip?

Gundry Dip or BBC Dip?

hydrogenaud.io

For those who want to know whether they need that dip, it is quite easy to:

- Run REW (I would do it from 1 meter, or outdoor) to see the FR. That should tell you if there is that shallow dip (2-3 dB) at the crossover point and where it lies.
- Use MultEQ X, as dlaloum mentioned, to implement such a "BBC dip" in that frequency range (as shown by the REW FR curve).

Then one can do their own listening test to find out if it sound better with vs without the dip.

If MultEQ X is not available, it should be easy enough to do it manually with PEQ.

I quickly checked a Harbeth and a B&W speakers that Amir measured, and they don't have such a dip at the crossover point, not at 2 kHz anyway but they seem to have a dip at much below the XO point. Also checked the LS50, also no such dip at the XO, but again, have one at freq much below that.

It seems to me, as others alluded to, speakers designed in recent years likely won't benefit from Audyssey's default dip, and can potentially made worse with it, though it is possible that implementing one at frequencies based not on 2 kHz, but on frequencies shown in the REW plots may (or may not) have merits, depending on the individual's preference.

Example curve, for the B&W 805S:

Crossover: 4,000 Hz
Dip: Seems to be at around 2,500 Hz

 

[EWL5]

If I were to purchase the UMIK-1 and the $20 app, should that tide me over until DL license goes on sale?

 

[peng]

If I were to purchase the UMIK-1 and the $20 app, should that tide me over until DL license goes on sale?

In my opinion, yes, assuming you will be using REW with the Mic too. Just keep in mind if you want to achieve not only good audible results but also pretty curves, you may have to spend a lot of time (potentially many hours) using the $20 app, vs the $200 MultEQ X app. If you are not keen on pretty curves, a couple of hours should get you good enough results.

 

[EWL5]

In my opinion, yes, assuming you will be using REW with the Mic too. Just keep in mind if you want to achieve not only good audible results but also pretty curves, you may have to spend a lot of time (potentially many hours) using the $20 app, vs the $200 MultEQ X app. If you are not keen on pretty curves, a couple of hours should get you good enough results.

I've seen REW mentioned a couple times but I have no idea what it is!

 

[peng]

I've seen REW mentioned a couple times but I have no idea what it is!

It is easy to learn and use, as there are many helpful posts, and YT videos. It let you pot frequency response curves, among many other useful curves. All those Audyssey, Anthem ARC, and even Dirac Live's predicted curves are useful, but they do differ quite a bit with the actual measured response curves.

REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software

REW is free software for room acoustic measurement, loudspeaker measurement and audio device measurement and analysis

www.roomeqwizard.com

Example of comparison for REW measured curve vs Audyssey's predicted curves:

Audyssey Room EQ Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audyssey Room Equalization. Audyssey is standard technology in a number of Audio/Video Receivers such as the Denon AVR-X3600H I recently reviewed. The standard version in the AVR is mostly all or nothing so I downloaded the Marantz/Denon...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Example of a tutorial for dummies, by Amir:

Room Measurement Tutorial for Dummies Part 1

There are few more things transformative in audio than learning how room acoustics works. You never look at any system the same again. Like moving from film photography to digital, measurements give you instant feedback on what your system is doing. Even if you choose to not make any changes...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[EWL5]

It is easy to learn and use, as there are many helpful posts, and YT videos. It let you pot frequency response curves, among many other useful curves. All those Audyssey, Anthem ARC, and even Dirac Live's predicted curves are useful, but they do differ quite a bit with the actual measured response curves.

REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software

REW is free software for room acoustic measurement, loudspeaker measurement and audio device measurement and analysis

www.roomeqwizard.com

Example of comparison for REW measured curve vs Audyssey's predicted curves:

Audyssey Room EQ Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audyssey Room Equalization. Audyssey is standard technology in a number of Audio/Video Receivers such as the Denon AVR-X3600H I recently reviewed. The standard version in the AVR is mostly all or nothing so I downloaded the Marantz/Denon...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Example of a tutorial for dummies, by Amir:

Room Measurement Tutorial for Dummies Part 1

There are few more things transformative in audio than learning how room acoustics works. You never look at any system the same again. Like moving from film photography to digital, measurements give you instant feedback on what your system is doing. Even if you choose to not make any changes...

www.audiosciencereview.com

To be honest, I don't have a lot of time to fiddle with REW and to make curves pretty. I'd like for it to be as automated as possible, which is what made Dirac Live so attractive to me. Am I wrong in understanding that DL requires the least amount of fiddling after a calibration?

 

[peng]

To be honest, I don't have a lot of time to fiddle with REW and to make curves pretty. I'd like for it to be as automated as possible, which is what made Dirac Live so attractive to me. Am I wrong in understanding that DL requires the least amount of fiddling after a calibration?

I mentioned REW but you asked "If I were to purchase the UMIK-1 and the $20 app, should that tide me over until DL license goes on sale?"

So I thought you would use REW. If you just want to use the $20 app on its own, then you don't need to purchase the Umik-1 mic. You only need one when you are ready to purchase the Dirac Live license.

About your new question, in my experience, DL does require the least amount of fiddling after a calibration. With Audyssey, you likely would have to tilt the bass up a little, disable MRC and play with the HF roll off curves. If you only want to correct/eq to below 2000 Hz, then even with Audyssey, you probably only have to tilt the bass curve, bump the sub level up a few dB and you are done, so no much fiddling required either.

 

[EWL5]

I mentioned REW but you asked "If I were to purchase the UMIK-1 and the $20 app, should that tide me over until DL license goes on sale?"

So I thought you would use REW. If you just want to use the $20 app on its own, then you don't need to purchase the Umik-1 mic. You only need one when you are ready to purchase the Dirac Live license.

About your new question, in my experience, DL does require the least amount of fiddling after a calibration. With Audyssey, you likely would have to tilt the bass up a little, disable MRC and play with the HF roll off curves. If you only want to correct/eq to below 2000 Hz, then even with Audyssey, you probably only have to tilt the bass curve, bump the sub level up a few dB and you are done, so no much fiddling required either.

My reasoning behind purchasing the UMIK-1 is with the thinking that it can only make for a better calibration regardless of whether I go with Audyssey or DL vs the puck that comes in the box. Are you saying it won't make a difference when using the $20 app?

 

[susanstone]

Audyssey Midrange Compensation – On or Off? – Denon and Marantz Receivers

Should you turn Midrange Compensation on or off? How do you know if your speakers need it? Let’s find out!

simplehomecinema.com

" Since our ears are extra sensitive in this region to frequency and phase shifts, speaker crossovers between tweeters and midrange drivers can create harshness if this dip is not introduced. This can especially affect voices and therefore can be distracting."

1) the human ear is especially sensitive within that frequency range
2) this is a common frequency at which crossovers are often located
3) The crossover generated distortions are then interpreted by our ear as harshness - hence the BBC specified a dip at this frequency to reduce the harshness...BUT - this harshness only happens IF a crossover is located in that frequency range. - if there is no crossover, or the crossover is at a different frequency, then you bear the audible cost of the dip, without any of the benefits

I don't think it is the crossover cause the problem. otherwise, speaker designer can just move the crossover to a different location. It is the other way around, because of human ears are sensitive in this region, your speaker is designed to do crossover or dip at that location. If you make the speaker flat on this frequency range, your speaker will sound harsh. Look at Peng's 805 graph, crossover is at 4000, but dip is still around 2.x kHz. In general, human prefer what they hear with BBC dip. It does not matter how you achieve it, by speaker design or by manipulating/filtering the output. If the speakers for whatever reason don't have that dip and AVR doesn't compensate it, the sound won't be good to ordinary people.

 

[ban25]

My reasoning behind purchasing the UMIK-1 is with the thinking that it can only make for a better calibration regardless of whether I go with Audyssey or DL vs the puck that comes in the box. Are you saying it won't make a difference when using the $20 app?

Audyssey only works with the puck attached directly to the AVR (even with the mobile app or MultEQ-X). You can't use the UMIK-1 with Audyssey, only REW and Dirac.

 

[peng]

My reasoning behind purchasing the UMIK-1 is with the thinking that it can only make for a better calibration regardless of whether I go with Audyssey or DL vs the puck that comes in the box. Are you saying it won't make a difference when using the $20 app?

I don't believe it would make a differene. The mic that came with the unit is not individually calibrated but I have used those for years, and have not seen any evidence the Umik-1 would produce audibly better results.

People's claims are, like mine, just claims...

 

[EWL5]

Audyssey only works with the puck attached directly to the AVR (even with the mobile app or MultEQ-X). You can't use the UMIK-1 with Audyssey, only REW and Dirac.

Taking a hard look at the product page, I only just realized it's a USB connection from the UMIK-1 (presumably to a PC and most likely a laptop).

This is good info as I may just forgo buying the app and go straight to the UMIK-1/Dirac expense. Do most folks buy the mic direct from the miniDSP site or is it possible to get it cheaper somewhere else?

 

[EWL5]

I don't believe it would make a differene. The mic that came with the unit is not individually calibrated but I have used those for years, and have not seen any evidence the Umik-1 would produce audibly better results.

People's claims are, like mine, just claims...

Would an older USB microphone from my Rockband/Guitar Hero days work as well as the UMIK-1?

 

[jhwalker]

I don't think it is the crossover cause the problem. otherwise, speaker designer can just move the crossover to a different location. It is the other way around, because of human ears are sensitive in this region, your speaker is designed to do crossover or dip at that location. If you make the speaker flat on this frequency range, your speaker will sound harsh. Look at Peng's 805 graph, crossover is at 4000, but dip is still around 2.x kHz. In general, human prefer what they hear with BBC dip. It does not matter how you achieve it, by speaker design or by manipulating/filtering the output. If the speakers for whatever reason don't have that dip and AVR doesn't compensate it, the sound won't be good to ordinary people.

My Revel F208s measure with a dip precisely at 2.2kHz (i.e., right at their crossover).

So for me, the Audyssey MRC is not needed and, in fact, would be detrimental.

 

[ban25]

Taking a hard look at the product page, I only just realized it's a USB connection from the UMIK-1 (presumably to a PC and most likely a laptop).

This is good info as I may just forgo buying the app and go straight to the UMIK-1/Dirac expense. Do most folks buy the mic direct from the miniDSP site or is it possible to get it cheaper somewhere else?

I bought mine from Amazon, but I think it's probably about the same price.

 

[susanstone]

My Revel F208s measure with a dip precisely at 2.2kHz (i.e., right at their crossover).

So for me, the Audyssey MRC is not needed and, in fact, would be detrimental.

View attachment 301526

Yes. this makes sense to use speaker dip. However, do you disable MRC or exclude the frequency from Audyssey? or both? If you only disable MRC but don't exclude the frequency, you end up with a flatten curve instead of dip.

 

[jhwalker]

Yes. this makes sense to use speaker dip. However, do you disable MRC or exclude the frequency from Audyssey? or both? If you only disable MRC but don't exclude the frequency, you end up with a flatten curve instead of dip.

Personally, I use the app to

1) turn off MRC
2) limit correction range to <400Hz for all speakers

My speakers don’t need “correction” other than in the bass range, for best integration with subwoofers.

 

[susanstone]

Personally, I use the app to

1) turn off MRC
2) limit correction range to <400Hz for all speakers

My speakers don’t need “correction” other than in the bass range, for best integration with subwoofers.

yeah. that is my understanding. when limiting correction range, it does not matter MRC is on or off.

 

[abdo123]

I don't believe it would make a differene. The mic that came with the unit is not individually calibrated but I have used those for years, and have not seen any evidence the Umik-1 would produce audibly better results.

People's claims are, like mine, just claims...

Below 1KHz most microphones are fairly accurate and i don’t think you should engage Room EQ above that but rather just buy decent speakers from the begining.

I understand your rationale.