Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

[oupee]

Well, it's mostly about the stereo listening expectations, which I find kind of mediocre on the x3500h, especially at low volumes (as we have a 4 years junior here). It opens-up bove the 50 level of volume, we usually have it at 30-40 level. I thought, that new models, due to proclaimed change to the sound signature by Denon ("Vivid and spacious") and/or maybe due to a better DACs, could provide me with the better stereo experience. But reading your response most probably I am wrong. I wanted to add pma-1600ne to it, but it lacks HT bypass mode, so jus thought that getting x4700h, I would solve that. As I understand now, not necessarily ....

When I connect the DAC Topping D50S to the SR8015, I get much better sound than through the DAC in the SR8015. Try some proven desktop DACs. It's an attempt for little money.

 

[peng]

Well, it's mostly about the stereo listening expectations, which I find kind of mediocre on the x3500h, especially at low volumes (as we have a 4 years junior here). It opens-up bove the 50 level of volume, we usually have it at 30-40 level. I thought, that new models, due to proclaimed change to the sound signature by Denon ("Vivid and spacious") and/or maybe due to a better DACs, could provide me with the better stereo experience. But reading your response most probably I am wrong. I wanted to add pma-1600ne to it, but it lacks HT bypass mode, so jus thought that getting x4700h, I would solve that. As I understand now, not necessarily ....

Looking at the FR, impedance and phase angle curves of the Silver 200, it is not that hard to drive but they can benefit a lot from a subwoofer for sure.

If you can feel the sound "open up" at volume above 50, assuming at 50 you are already happy, then you will not hear much of a difference with an external power amp, especially the PMA-1600NE that has about the same output as you AVR, 2 Ch driven (you said stereo).

Volume at 50 is almost 30 dB below reference, assuming after running Audyssey the level trims are set to +/- a couple dB from 0, your X3500H is just cruising well below the speed limit!!

Can you check the level trim settings and tell us what the left, right center channels are set to? Then we can tell you approximately how hard you are actually pushing the AVR, at volume 50, or 60. I bet not hard at all, and that at 50, the output might be less than 0.1 W average, up to may be 10 to 50 W maximum peak. That's just a guess, can be firmed as soon as I know your trim level setting, or if you know the SPL you are listening to at your listening position and the distance.

Keep in mind, volume setting means very little as depending on gains, speaker sensitivity and distance, it can change with different power amps. For example, the internal amps of the X3500H is about 29 dB, so if you use it with an amp that has gain of 32, such as some older Emotiva amps, you will be able to turn the volume down a few clicks even if the Emotiva amp is less powerful than the AVR. Conversely, if you pair the AVR with a 500 W Hpex amp that has about 26 dB gain, you will have to turn the volume up a few click, all else being equal, that includes listening to the same sound pressure level.

Based on the specs and measurements, Denon AVRs and the PMA amps should have no sound signature, you may think they do if you are convinced by the marketing hypes. At distortions level that low, frequency response that flat, and the FFT (that shows the harmonic profile) that clean, you will hear a difference between the internal amps and an external power amp with similar specs/measurements if you expect the difference because of the marketing information and price tags, but that won't work if you don't know which amp you are listening to. No harm trying though, and it would likely work well as long as you don't do any DBT to find the truth (sarcasm not intended).

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Monitor Audio Silver 200 Loudspeakers

See that the bass dropped rapidly from 80 Hz down, though depending on placement, they can sound great even without a subwoofer, especially if you use the Editor App tor run Audyssey and do some customization after. That's how you can get even better sound quality without spending money on an external amp. The App only cost $20 and Ratbuddsye, the 3rd party UI that allows you to customize easily, is a free download.

 

[-pekr-]

Looking at the FR, impedance and phase angle curves of the Silver 200, it is not that hard to drive but they can benefit a lot from a subwoofer for sure.

If you can feel the sound "open up" at volume above 50, assuming at 50 you are already happy, then you will not hear much of a difference with an external power amp, especially the PMA-1600NE that has about the same output as you AVR, 2 Ch driven (you said stereo).

Volume at 50 is almost 30 dB below reference, assuming after running Audyssey the level trims are set to +/- a couple dB from 0, your X3500H is just cruising well below the speed limit!!

Can you check the level trim settings and tell us what the left, right center channels are set to? Then we can tell you approximately how hard you are actually pushing the AVR, at volume 50, or 60. I bet not hard at all, and that at 50, the output might be less than 0.1 W average, up to may be 10 to 50 W maximum peak. That's just a guess, can be firmed as soon as I know your trim level setting, or if you know the SPL you are listening to at your listening position and the distance.

Keep in mind, volume setting means very little as depending on gains, speaker sensitivity and distance, it can change with different power amps. For example, the internal amps of the X3500H is about 29 dB, so if you use it with an amp that has gain of 32, such as some older Emotiva amps, you will be able to turn the volume down a few clicks even if the Emotiva amp is less powerful than the AVR. Conversely, if you pair the AVR with a 500 W Hpex amp that has about 26 dB gain, you will have to turn the volume up a few click, all else being equal, that includes listening to the same sound pressure level.

Based on the specs and measurements, Denon AVRs and the PMA amps should have no sound signature, you may think they do if you are convinced by the marketing hypes. At distortions level that low, frequency response that flat, and the FFT (that shows the harmonic profile) that clean, you will hear a difference between the internal amps and an external power amp with similar specs/measurements if you expect the difference because of the marketing information and price tags, but that won't work if you don't know which amp you are listening to. No harm trying though, and it would likely work well as long as you don't do any DBT to find the truth (sarcasm not intended).

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Monitor Audio Silver 200 Loudspeakers

See that the bass dropped rapidly from 80 Hz down, though depending on placement, they can sound great even with a subwoofer, especially if you use the Editor App tor run Audyssey and do some customization after. That's how you can get even better sound quality without spending money on an external amp. The App only cost $20 and Ratbuddsye, the 3rd party UI that allows you to customize easily, is a free download.

View attachment 125210

Eeeh, such a precise answer, now I feel really stupid, not understanding all those dB levels and their meaning

Here's the result of the Audyssey measurements for the speakers:

Cinema EQ in other menu is turned off, which gets me a bit more clarity to the heights. I am not the "purist", so not using various Pure Direct etc. modes, but Audyssey, calibrated via an app. Don't ask me about those values, I have set it the best way it sounds to my ears

The thing is, that above the 50, it sounds too loud for me. The reasong might also be that either I am too old , or have not a good room treatment - hard floors, crowded desk around the TV, attic room, etc. (the carpet is under the sofa, and can't be seen):

So, if x4700h can't provide me with the clearer and not so muddy performance with the lower volume levels, the upgrade would be a loss of the money.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Eeeh, such a precise answer, now I feel really stupid, not understanding all those dB levels and their meaning

Here's the result of the Audyssey measurements for the speakers:

View attachment 125217
View attachment 125218
View attachment 125219
Cinema EQ in other menu is turned off, which gets me a bit more clarity to the heights. I am not the "purist", so not using various Pure Direct etc. modes, but Audyssey, calibrated via an app. Don't ask me about those values, I have set it the best way it sounds to my ears

The thing is, that above the 50, it sounds too loud for me. The reasong might also be that either I am too old , or have not a good room treatment - hard floors, crowded desk around the TV, attic room, etc. (the carpet is under the sofa, and can't be seen):

View attachment 125220
So, if x4700h can't provide me with the clearer and not so muddy performance with the lower volume levels, the upgrade would be a loss of the money.

Have you tried Reference volume offset (under Dynamic EQ) of 0db when listening at lower volume?

 

[Dj7675]

Enabling DEQ is a really good suggestion if you don't like listening above 50 on the master volume. DEQ works really well in 2 channel listening in particular (in multi channel it boosts the surround levels which bothers some people). DEQ will restore the missing bass at lower listening volumes. If a reference level offset of zero is too much bass, then try the 5/10/15 settings.
The other option is using the Audyssey app and adding about 6db of bass boost above 200hz.

 

[EB1000]

I have great respect for Amir and his measurement skills, but when the X3700H outperform the X6700H by far, I suspect that something isn't right here. It really makes no sense. I'd repeat the tests again if it was possible. Maybe the X6700H unit was faulty? So "alpha processing 32", which is available on the X6700H and not on the X3700H is actually degrading performance?

 

[oupee]

Eeeh, such a precise answer, now I feel really stupid, not understanding all those dB levels and their meaning

Here's the result of the Audyssey measurements for the speakers:

View attachment 125217
View attachment 125218
View attachment 125219
Cinema EQ in other menu is turned off, which gets me a bit more clarity to the heights. I am not the "purist", so not using various Pure Direct etc. modes, but Audyssey, calibrated via an app. Don't ask me about those values, I have set it the best way it sounds to my ears

The thing is, that above the 50, it sounds too loud for me. The reasong might also be that either I am too old , or have not a good room treatment - hard floors, crowded desk around the TV, attic room, etc. (the carpet is under the sofa, and can't be seen):

View attachment 125220
So, if x4700h can't provide me with the clearer and not so muddy performance with the lower volume levels, the upgrade would be a loss of the money.

Buy a rug for a start. This must sound like a school gym.

 

[peng]

Eeeh, such a precise answer, now I feel really stupid, not understanding all those dB levels and their meaning

Here's the result of the Audyssey measurements for the speakers:

View attachment 125217
View attachment 125218
View attachment 125219
Cinema EQ in other menu is turned off, which gets me a bit more clarity to the heights. I am not the "purist", so not using various Pure Direct etc. modes, but Audyssey, calibrated via an app. Don't ask me about those values, I have set it the best way it sounds to my ears

The thing is, that above the 50, it sounds too loud for me. The reasong might also be that either I am too old , or have not a good room treatment - hard floors, crowded desk around the TV, attic room, etc. (the carpet is under the sofa, and can't be seen):

View attachment 125220
So, if x4700h can't provide me with the clearer and not so muddy performance with the lower volume levels, the upgrade would be a loss of the money.

Thank you for info, that helps us to troubleshoot for sure. I can now suggest the following:

1) The X4700H or even the X8500H, or a 1,000 W power amp will not help because your power need is well within the X3500H's 105 W, 8 Ohms rated output. Volume at 50, with the trim level set by Audyssey to -3 dB, is actually equivalent to only 47 in the absolute sense so you are using very little "power".

2) Did you change the Dynamic volume to "Off"? For music if you leave it on, even just "Light", it may explain why the sound "opens up", yet you would find it too loud. It is mostly useful if you want the speech to be more legible, but for music please set it to "Off".

3) Assuming you left Dynamic EQ on, that is find but for music, as others suggested, try different offset and you may like 10 dB better depending on the kind of music. 5 dB may be good for classical but not for live rock concerts such an example.

According to Audyssey:

0 dB (Film Ref): This is the default setting and should be used when listening to movies.
15 dB: Select this setting for pop/rock music or other program material that is mixed at very high listening levels and has a compressed dynamic range.
10 dB: Select this setting for jazz or other music that has a wider dynamic range. This setting should also be selected for TV content as that is usually mixed at 10 dB below film reference.
5 dB: Select this setting for content that has a very wide dynamic range, such as classical music.

4) LFC needs to be off, or you will lose a ton of low bass.

5) Containment amount: If you turn LFC off, it would have no effect and disappear on the menu.

So if you take care of 2), 3) and 4) above, you may be happier with the X3400H without spending any money.

 

[amper42]

I would turn off dynamic volume, turn Dynamic EQ on with an RLO of 10 and set the Fronts with a crossover of 80Hz to your sub(s). Then I would put a nice rug in the room and re-run Audyssey.

You won't hear a sonic difference between Denon 3700 and 4700 (if you don't use Height speakers). Auro-3D in the Denon 4700 is great with Height speakers but if you don't have them why pay extra? The best thing about these new models is the option to run fully in pre-amp mode. AND both of them offer that option.

 

[-pekr-]

Thank you for info, that helps us to troubleshoot for sure. I can now suggest the following:

1) The X4700H or even the X8500H, or a 1,000 W power amp will not help because your power need is well within the X3500H's 105 W, 8 Ohms rated output. Volume at 50, with the trim level set by Audyssey to -3 dB, is actually equivalent to only 47 in the absolute sense so you are using very little "power".

2) Did you change the Dynamic volume to "Off"? For music if you leave it on, even just "Light", it may explain why the sound "opens up", yet you would find it too loud.

3) Assuming you left Dynamic EQ on, that is find but for music, as others suggested, try different offset and you may like 10 dB better depending on the kind of music. 5 dB may be good for classical but not for live rock concerts such an example.

According to Audyssey:

0 dB (Film Ref): This is the default setting and should be used when listening to movies.
15 dB: Select this setting for pop/rock music or other program material that is mixed at very high listening levels and has a compressed dynamic range.
10 dB: Select this setting for jazz or other music that has a wider dynamic range. This setting should also be selected for TV content as that is usually mixed at 10 dB below film reference.
5 dB: Select this setting for content that has a very wide dynamic range, such as classical music.

4) LFC needs to be off, or you will lose a ton of low bass.

5) Containment amount: If you turn LFC off, it would have no effect and disappear on the menu.

So if you take care of 2), 3) and 4) above, you may be happier with the X3400H without spending any money.

Tried the most settings and various configs. I will start with the 4-5), yes, it turns the bass down a bit, so I can undestand, what it does. As for 3) I use it at 0-5dB setting and you are absolutly correct, that with 2) (Dynamic volume), set to Light, it seems that it opens-up.

When one of my friends visited me (he owns a Marantz), he switched my Denon to Pure on a remote and turned up the volume. Denon got quite quiter, in comparison, what we normally run at 30-35, the same level of loudness was delivered at 50-55 in Pure / Direct mode. He called my Audyssey settings a gimmick

On the other hand, ppl do various stuff. Some suggest to limit Audyssey to 500-700 Hz range, some suggest to trun-off midrange compensation in the app, etc., but then I have seen the interview with the Denon rep and the Audyssey author, who did not suggest that

I found your note re subwoofer quite interesting though. I thought, I might not necessarily need it, as MA S200 are a good speaker, though some find them being a bit bright. Ppl suggested me to go with Rel or SVS, but if I would be supposed to get sub, it would be the Silver line W-12. I just would need to prepare my wife for a big box joining our family So - is the "trick" that sub would help the speakers to offload the bass to the sub, by setting some cross-over value? Would that help Denon / the rest of the speakers, to provide better performance / balance?

Thanks,
/Petr

 

[peng]

Tried the most settings and various configs. I will start with the 4-5), yes, it turns the bass down a bit, so I can undestand, what it does. As for 3) I use it at 0-5dB setting and you are absolutly correct, that with 2) (Dynamic volume), set to Light, it seems that it opens-up.

Sorry I wasn't clear about the dynamic volume setting, just edited it for better clarity. To be clear, for music you should set it to "Off".
What I meant was, even if you set to "light", the effect will still be there to boost the frequency range that helps make human speech in movies sound louder. So for music it will sound better overall if you set it to OFF.

When one of my friends visited me (he owns a Marantz), he switched my Denon to Pure on a remote and turned up the volume. Denon got quite quiter, in comparison, what we normally run at 30-35, the same level of loudness was delivered at 50-55 in Pure / Direct mode. He called my Audyssey settings a gimmick

Yes the loudness would likely change because in doing it job, Audyssey would apply boosts and cuts, mostly cuts, to various parts of the audio band in order to compensate for the effects of your room. You can call it gimmick, but to me it does a decent job in restoring neutrality that would have otherwise been spoiled to some extents by the reflections in the room, depending on you room and speaker placement.

You have the choice to turn it on or off anyway.

On the other hand, ppl do various stuff. Some suggest to limit Audyssey to 500-700 Hz range, some suggest to trun-off midrange compensation in the app, etc., but then I have seen the interview with the Denon rep and the Audyssey author, who did not suggest that

Yes, it depends on your room, and also the individual's taste. The mid range compensation may work well with some speakers in some rooms so it is best to try both on and off and then you'll be the judge.

I found your note re subwoofer quite interesting though. I thought, I might not necessarily need it, as MA S200 are a good speaker, though some find them being a bit bright. Ppl suggested me to go with Rel or SVS, but if I would be supposed to get sub, it would be the Silver line W-12. I just would need to prepare my wife for a big box joining our family So - is the "trick" that sub would help the speakers to offload the bass to the sub, by setting some cross-over value? Would that help Denon / the rest of the speakers, to provide better performance / balance?

I just realized I had another stupid typo in my comments about subwoofer, I meant to say:

"....though depending on placement, they can sound great even without a subwoofer.." but instead of without, I had "with", edited now.

That being said, it is true (not just a trick), that a subwoofer could help the speakers to off load a little, if you set the crossover to 80 or 90 Hz. How much it gets unload obviously would depend on the contents you are playing. If the contents don't have much in the range below the crossover setting then there won't make much difference at all. It is not only about hearing the bass, it is also how the quality of the bass. In that sense, if you have a good sub, run Audyssey following instructions to the letter, and are willing to spend time customizing with the App, you can potentially have better bass response in terms of not just quantity but quality as well.

 

[amper42]

While I obviously need to work on speaker placement and room treatments in this example, the image above displays the various Audyssey RLO settings. Red is Direct mode using the Denon 4700. The volume levels for each test were matched at 75dB. The RLO settings extended the bass response in the 29Hz range with RLO-0 being the highest bass boost. Audyssey also elevated the highs over 5000Hz. It's interesting that most of the frequencies in between 40Hz and 4000 Hz are less impacted by Denon RLO. This example is with the Revel F328Be. Other speakers will show different impact points but the result of using RLO will show up as a bass extension. I found this chart helpful for visualizing the impact of the various Denon Dynamic EQ RLO settings.

 

[Dj7675]

Tried the most settings and various configs. I will start with the 4-5), yes, it turns the bass down a bit, so I can undestand, what it does. As for 3) I use it at 0-5dB setting and you are absolutly correct, that with 2) (Dynamic volume), set to Light, it seems that it opens-up.

When one of my friends visited me (he owns a Marantz), he switched my Denon to Pure on a remote and turned up the volume. Denon got quite quiter, in comparison, what we normally run at 30-35, the same level of loudness was delivered at 50-55 in Pure / Direct mode. He called my Audyssey settings a gimmick

On the other hand, ppl do various stuff. Some suggest to limit Audyssey to 500-700 Hz range, some suggest to trun-off midrange compensation in the app, etc., but then I have seen the interview with the Denon rep and the Audyssey author, who did not suggest that

I found your note re subwoofer quite interesting though. I thought, I might not necessarily need it, as MA S200 are a good speaker, though some find them being a bit bright. Ppl suggested me to go with Rel or SVS, but if I would be supposed to get sub, it would be the Silver line W-12. I just would need to prepare my wife for a big box joining our family So - is the "trick" that sub would help the speakers to offload the bass to the sub, by setting some cross-over value? Would that help Denon / the rest of the speakers, to provide better performance / balance?

Thanks,
/Petr

As @peng already mentioned... but to add a little bit to it..
1-Turn off dynamic volume. It limits dynamic range. It is good for night time listening etc but something most leave off for music
2-Do give DEQ (not to be confused with dynamic volume) a try with the different reference level offsets. DEQ will restore bass levels when listening less than reference level

 

[peng]

Here's more information about how Dynamic volume work:

dynamic volume and dialogue – Ask Audyssey (zendesk.com)

 

[peng]

View attachment 125250

While I obviously need to work on speaker placement and room treatments in this example, the image above displays the various Audyssey RLO settings. Red is Direct mode using the Denon 4700. The volume levels for each test were matched at 75dB. The RLO settings extended the bass response in the 29Hz range with RLO-0 being the highest bass boost. Audyssey also elevated the highs over 5000Hz. It's interesting that most of the frequencies in between 40Hz and 4000 Hz are less impacted by Denon RLO. This example is with the Revel F328Be. Other speakers will show different impact points but the result of using RLO will show up as a bass extension. I found this chart helpful for visualizing the impact of the various Denon Dynamic EQ RLO settings.

Can you add the one with DEQ set to off? As it is, may be you have a difficult room, otherwise I expect a better picture between Audyssey Ref and Direct mode.

 

[Bear123]

When I connect the DAC Topping D50S to the SR8015, I get much better sound than through the DAC in the SR8015. Try some proven desktop DACs. It's an attempt for little money.

You bought it and used it with an expectation for better sound quality. Knowing which device was playing, it is not surprising at all that it sounds better to you. In fact, if a friend tricked you and didn't actually hook it up but you thought he did, there is a very good chance it would have sounded better to you as well. Just saying. Perception is reality.

 

[amper42]

Can you add the one with DEQ set to off? As it is, may be you have a difficult room, otherwise I expect a better picture between Audyssey Ref and Direct mode.

@peng - I moved the UMIK back to 12 feet at the main listening position ear height. Then I ran REW with DIRECT mode and with Audyssey Reference selected without DEQ. The result were better at this distance. You can see the Audyssey Reference setting with no DEQ is fairly flat compared to the Revel house curve with DIRECT mode.

I can now easily switch between these two modes with the push of the Direct or Stereo button on the Denon 4700 remote. Choice is good.

 

[peng]

@peng - I moved the UMIK back to 12 feet at the main listening position ear height. Then I ran REW with DIRECT mode and with Audyssey Reference selected without DEQ. The result were better at this distance. You can see the Audyssey Reference setting with no DEQ is fairly flat compared to the Revel house curve with DIRECT mode.

I can now easily switch between these two modes with the push of the Direct or Stereo button on the Denon 4700 remote. Choice is good.

View attachment 125529

Thank you, that's more like it! Though its 1/6 but I would imagine in 1/12 you will still be within +/- 3.5 to 5 dB, in the below 150 Hz range; and that then if you use the App you should be able to get it within +/- 1.5 to 2 dB not only for the mlp but also for a listening bubble/window easily. From there you can customize things to you liking.

 

[amper42]

@peng - Here's the version with 1/12. It's similar. I don't think I could make these small adjustments with the Audyssey app on the iPad. Have you found a way to run Ratbuddy on a Macintosh? Don't think I have a PC setup.

Which frequencies would you adjust? Thanks

 

[peng]

@peng - Here's the version with 1/12. It's similar. I don't think I could make these small adjustments with the Audyssey app on the iPad. Have you found a way to run Ratbuddy on a Macintosh? Don't think I have a PC setup.

Which frequencies would you adjust? Thanks

View attachment 125552

As predicted, it is within +/- 4 to 5 dB that is quite good from just one run of Audyssey without fine tuning using Ratbuddyssey.
If you have time, you may want to do some sweeps to find out what the average would look like by doing sweeps with the Mic moved to measure at different off axis angles. I did it after seeing Matthew's video showing Audyssey messed up in some frequencies when measuring off-axis to obtain what he called the listening window responses. I did not find such issue at all, and I wonder why he did, may be its the way he ran Audyssey and/or he wasn't using XT32.

My listening window using 9 positions averaged, 1/12 smoothing: