If using the Denon in full preamp mode, it would not be an issue. Please see below what is going on with the 4700h. SiNAD is close to its best up to 2V, in amp off mode, it is similar on the 3700h
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Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review
- Thread starter amirm
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And with an 11-channel amp, it sounds like you're all set to use preamp mode.
Thanks so much might buy it today kind of excited im coming from a yamaha 3060 using a 7.2.4 , do you reackon this is going to be quite an upgrade. I hope so as read audsey review and it can be quite good with a bit of work hopefully will find out soon
I am starting to think maybe I'll keep the yamaha 3060 till next year use that in full pre amp mode if it can and wait till next year as only having one hdmi 2.1 input seems a real kick in the teeth especially when they have given it two hdmi 2.1 outputs makes no sense.....
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Today, I spent 3 hours inviting 3 friends in my family room for a listening test between the X3700H (Pure Direct in ‘Pre-Amp only’ mode) and the preamp (Parasound P6 - perhaps a average preamp. Used with balanced inputs). My A/V rack is in the library, so they could not know whether the receiver or P6 was playing.
My speakers (Focal Electra 1038Be) are reasonably efficient. While I do not have speaker measurements for those, I have for the 1037Be (close enough): https://www.stereophile.com/content/focal-electra-1037-be-loudspeaker-measurements
It was night and day, I’m afraid. Of course, they could pick out the P6 each time. And they heavily preferred the P6. It is all about how the higher preamp voltage level (+ balanced inputs) of the P6 could drastically improve the dynamic range, bass slam and provide greater clarity at higher volumes with better peaks.
Notes:
1. With receiver, I always listened at 60-70 dB SPL (volume level in receiver is 35 to about 48). Above that, it does not sound as good. With the P6, I could go higher SPL levels without degradation in quality (& in fact sounded better). Everyone agreed. Then, we played music on both setups at same SPL level (around 70dB where we were sitting).
2. There are tonal differences (but my focus is not on those as there shall always be differences between two very different preamps / receivers). I also shall not compare the differences in soundstage / imaging, etc. With X3700h, high end is more open / clear / ‘bright’ whereas it seems to be relatively rolled off a bit with the P6 (not a bad thing while using Focal / Monitor Audio / B&W speakers)
3. The listeners felt that there was a BIG difference in bass (both the amount and quality of it) with P6 handily beating the x3700h. Very evident in pianos / orchestra music. This is not something I could fix by using Audyssey with x3700h (as my dynamic range reduces for some reason if I don’t use Pure Direct in Preamp only mode). If I were to increase subwoofer level beyond current levels in the receiver, I’d get a boomy sound. As the listening levels were same, the difference is in peaks / dynamic range.
To illustrate #3 above, in Qobuz, go to the PS Audio Reference Playlist. Played ‘The Train Song’ (Holly Cole Trio / Temptation). With the x3700h, my friends wondered why this is supposed to be a reference recording as it seemed both thin and muddy at the same time. With the P6, they understood why that’s a great track. Then, from the same playlist, play ‘The Firebird (L’oiseau de feu) - Suite 1919: Infernal Dance of King Kaschei’ (Myung-Whun Chung / Bastille Opera Orchestra). The difference in bass slam was huge.
So, in short, the biggest difference they felt were (1) better clarity / dynamic range at higher listening levels, and (2) better bass.
Perhaps, you have much more efficient speakers than I do.
Set up details:
Room: 20x20x9 with it being open in part of the back to foyer / living room. No bass treatments (other than rugs ‘ ‘absorbent sofas’). Speaker front was about 3 ft from back wall and 5 ft from side walls. The four of us sat in a 3-seater couch about 12 ft away. Speakers were 9ft from each other.
Tidal HiFi & Qobuz Studio Premier through Roon —> Ethernet cable to router —-> Chromecast Audio —> IFI iPurifier 2 (SPDIF version)—-> Toslink input into EITHER X3700h (Pure direct in Preamp only mode) OR P6 (balanced inputs, bypass tone control circuitry) —> Parasound A21 —> Focal Electra 1038Be & Twin subs (Martin Logan Dynamo 1000W) [subs were fed by receiver / P6; crossover = 60Hz with x3700h and 60Hz with P6 for the 1st hour and 50Hz (same frequency used for HPF for mains) with P6 for the remainder of the time]. All interconnects and speaker cables were from Blue Jeans Cable.
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Interesting. Now, is Direct really the best mode to use?
Any in-room measurements? Slopes on D&M AVRs are 24 dB/oct for highpass and 12 dB/oct for lowpass. No info for P6 to be found in manual, but could be 12 dB/oct for both. Edit: It is!
Repeat the test without subs and get some objective measurements
Repeat the test without subs and get some objective measurements
My general approach is to allow as much bass so long as there is no boomy and it does not impede bass clarity & transient response. Also, role of subwoofer is only to extend frequency response lower and not to add to the bass produced by mains (no LFE+Main). When I play Pure Direct in preamp only mode on the X3700h, my subwoofers are active.
Repeat the test without subs and get some objective measurements
The ‘without subs’ repeat seems like a good idea. Perhaps, next week.
I selfishly performed this test (with friends) for my sake: just sharing the result that they provided. So, I don’t need the objective measurements for me. But, what sort of objective measurements are you talking about in this case and what sort of equipment does one need?
I assume it depends on your room & also on the quality and frequency response of your speakers. With my current speakers, I have used the Audyssey MultiEQ Editor app (on iOS) and have always preferred Pure Direct in Preamp mode.
REW and laptop with mic in. Denon's mic is good enough
I wish I was there, then I might have some observations to make that may or may not account for the reported different. Otherwise I can only think of Dr. Toole's comment on speaking listening that, if you know which one you are listening to, I don't care what you think............., and that's for apple to apple comparison, carefully level matched etc etc etc.. Regardless, if you hear the night and day difference, then it doesn't matter what I think either.
It is great finding for you if you have already bought and paid for the P6.I wish I was there, then I might have some observations to make that may or may not account for the reported different. Otherwise I can only think of Dr. Toole's comment on speaking listening that, if you know which one you are listening to, I don't care what you think............., and that's for apple to apple comparison, carefully level matched etc etc etc.. Regardless, if you hear the night and day difference, then it doesn't matter what I think either.
I hope other members don't misconstrue my comments / observations. IMHO, (1) the x3700h is an excellent HT receiver with good streaming / Audyssey XT32 / Preamp mode. It shall also work quite fine as a preamp for 2-channel listening in small rooms. I especially like that their engineers listen to what viewers want and deliver. And, frankly, 90% of the customers do not care for or have no need for a near-audiophile level 2-channel performance. They want a HT setup that they can use to watch Disney movies with their kids.
We should not try evaluate it in other roles it is not designed for (serious 2-channel listening in relatively larger rooms (> 16x16x8). That is not fair to Denon / Marantz.
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Why? Because you can hear it? Good one.
Maybe true for large rooms and inefficient speakers and high SPL. But not for preamp mode with really good Sinad and far amount of voltage headroom.
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Did your use of the app include limiting the frequency range to bass only?
Most systems will sound much worse without the bass corrections due to the unchecked effects of the room.
Yes. Fronts, center, and surrounds only till 400Hz and sub till 200 Hz (immaterial for sub)
I think Peng was just trying to find out whether it was a fair test that allowed you to arrive at those findings. After all, if in our minds we know something measures better, our brains will tell us it sounds better. In a group of people, that can also be exaggerated too.
Thank you for you help, though I thought I did make it clear (or did try anyway) in my first attempt.
I am not one who thinks everything sound the same, but I am confident that people who designed good amps such as the P6 and the preamp in the 3700 would have aimed for transparency, not a specific kind of soundstage, thin, warm sort of descriptive that audiophiles tend to throw around. I also believe there is a point of diminishing return that isn't hard to reach when it comes to preamps and amps used in homes that typically have noise floor > say, 10 dB FBW, such that there shouldn't be, and won't be night and day kind of difference. So if night and day difference was heard, I would feel like wanting to be there to see why. I have several preamps, amps and an integrated amp myself, and still plan on eventually acquiring one of two AHB2 (may be by the time I am ready there will a MkII version
, but it would not be for "better sound quality" based on my own experience over the years.Regardless, we all know this is hot controversial topic, and no one has ever been able to prove it beyond doubts one way or another. Wouldn't it be nice if @amirm could set up a DBT session for a proper comparison between a well measured AVR such as the X3600H, and a couple of preamp/power amp pair that has been reported to "night and day sound better (along with whatever subjective descriptive used..)". I bet he could make it profitable by selling tickets, and then video recordings, findings etc..
Peng: IMHO, the difference is not just due the noise floor at all.
Here's how I can best describe it in words:
A short while ago, I had Martin Logan Motion 60XT speakers driven by a Marantz SR6014 receiver. I tried that out for a month. While based on nominal specs, they seem efficient (94 db @ 2.83 V/m, 4 ohms), the impedance goes all the way down to 2 ohms in bass region & that too, at undesirable phase at those frequencies. Next: I started using the SR6014 as a preamp and bought the Parasound A21 (60A per channel current capability) to drive the speakers. Same, not-too-high listening level. Big, big difference in sound quality.
The difference in SQ I see now between using the x3700h and P6 as preamp is similar to the one I felt above moving from using SR6014 as amp and using A21 as amp.
Just try it, perhaps in a store that has both receivers and preamps. You'll see. Yes, there is noise floor related difference but only relevant to me at 70db spl or higher. More important, is how the same A21 amp now controls the speakers (sounds of cello recordings, dynamic bursts in sound, for example) & that is perhaps more related to power reserve than noise floor. Crucially: the difference ain’t small.
FWIW: I, too, try not to get bit by all the snake oil the salesmen peddle. As I said, I use Blue Jeans cables / interconnects and stock power cords & no power conditioner. Until today, I was using a $35 Chromecast Audio as a Roon endpoint.
Here's how I can best describe it in words:
A short while ago, I had Martin Logan Motion 60XT speakers driven by a Marantz SR6014 receiver. I tried that out for a month. While based on nominal specs, they seem efficient (94 db @ 2.83 V/m, 4 ohms), the impedance goes all the way down to 2 ohms in bass region & that too, at undesirable phase at those frequencies. Next: I started using the SR6014 as a preamp and bought the Parasound A21 (60A per channel current capability) to drive the speakers. Same, not-too-high listening level. Big, big difference in sound quality.
The difference in SQ I see now between using the x3700h and P6 as preamp is similar to the one I felt above moving from using SR6014 as amp and using A21 as amp.
Just try it, perhaps in a store that has both receivers and preamps. You'll see. Yes, there is noise floor related difference but only relevant to me at 70db spl or higher. More important, is how the same A21 amp now controls the speakers (sounds of cello recordings, dynamic bursts in sound, for example) & that is perhaps more related to power reserve than noise floor. Crucially: the difference ain’t small.
FWIW: I, too, try not to get bit by all the snake oil the salesmen peddle. As I said, I use Blue Jeans cables / interconnects and stock power cords & no power conditioner. Until today, I was using a $35 Chromecast Audio as a Roon endpoint.
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