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Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

peng

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Just try it, perhaps in a store that has both receivers and preamps. You'll see. Yes, there is noise floor related difference but only relevant to me at 70db spl or higher. More important, is how the same A21 amp now controls the speakers (sounds of cello recordings, dynamic bursts in sound, for example) & that is perhaps more related to power reserve than noise floor.

The thing is, before I became more firm on the objective side I have had spent hours and hours trying.., but not in any stores because it would not be possible to do it "right" (by my standard). Been that, done that, just not possible, let alone the sales rep's typical blablabla...when trying to do somethng serious.

The funny thing too is, I did use my A21, as well as my 4BSST, and a pair of vintage Marantz separates pair that was once said to have that "golden sound", = warm I supposed. Also used other amps including my one and only NAD integrated, and several external DACs. No I don't have any Martin Logan speakers, but I did use a few different speakers including my 1028 Be, R900. LS50, among others. Never heard any easily audible difference, let alone night and day, again wish I was there to hear the difference you were hearing.:D Also funny (not literally) I was able to hear the difference between the speakers easily, I am positive I could have no trouble scoring well over 50/50 even if done blind but obviously I couldn't prove without help by others. I also thought I could hear differences between some of my DACs, go figure!!

And by the way, I had others presence too in some of the tests, including a near DBT to compare the 4BSST with the A21. The guy who scored barely better than 50/50 bought my Bryston, but he also wanted my A21, that I won't sell until I am ready for the AHB2. I do agree with the power reserve thing, if your night and day difference reference to that then it would be more understandable to me. Sometimes people would claim such difference even at low spl, that, to me would not have been possible if the tests were done truly apple to apple, and blinded.

This truly is a very interesting thing, and I am one who would not mind paying $100 for entrance to a DBT comparing amps, even though I am very confident of the outcome. As long as such a DBT meet my expectation in terms of protocol and the DUT list.
 

reg19

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4BSST vs A21 is very different. I most likely shall fail a DBT in that too.

Try a DBT using a receiver like x3700h as power amp and A21 as power amp. On demanding tracks. That is the sort of difference I’m talking about.
 

peng

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4BSST vs A21 is very different. I most likely might fail a DBT in that too.

Try a DBT using a receiver like x3700h as power amp and A21 as power amp.

Didn't I mention I used those to compare with a X3400H? Same results!! And I only mentioned my other experiments as an aside, not really has a lot to do with what what we have been discussing. May be I shouldn't have mentioned it.

By the way, impedance and phase angles of speakers don't play a part in comparing preamps. The input impedance of the power amp does, need to be >10 kOhm, or 20 kOhm just to be sure and beyond doubt, especially when matched with the Denon AVRs that then to have higher output impedance.

My comments so far has mainly to do with your attempts to compare the P6 to the X3700H in preamp mode. Wasn't that you were trying to do though?

Also, to be clear, I think, and have said the P6 is a good amp and I wouldn't mind owning one too even though I have no expectation it would contribute to "sound quality" for me, given what I have already. Just case in point, I would not hesitate to use a X3700H as preamp using analog inputs, to replace any of my preamps if there is a need (hope not obviously..).
 

Matt S

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Thank you for you help, though I thought I did make it clear (or did try anyway) in my first attempt.:D I am not one who thinks everything sound the same, but I am confident that people who designed good amps such as the P6 and the preamp in the 3700 would have aimed for transparency, not a specific kind of soundstage, thin, warm sort of descriptive that audiophiles tend to throw around.

I also believe there is a point of diminishing return that isn't hard to reach when it comes to preamps and amps used in homes that typically have noise floor > say, 10 dB FBW, such that there shouldn't be, and won't be night and day kind of difference. So if night and day difference was heard, I would feel like wanting to be there to see why. I have several preamps, amps and an integrated amp myself, and still plan on eventually acquiring one of two AHB2 (may be by the time I am ready there will a MkII version:p, but it would not be for "better sound quality" based on my own experience over the years.

Regardless, we all know this is hot controversial topic, and no one has ever been able to prove it beyond doubts one way or another. Wouldn't it be nice if @amirm could set up a DBT session for a proper comparison between a well measured AVR such as the X3600H, and a couple of preamp/power amp pair that has been reported to "night and day sound better (along with whatever subjective descriptive used..)". I bet he could make it profitable by selling tickets, and then video recordings, findings etc..

Sounds like we are all heading to Amir's pad then for a listening session. Drinks only allowed after blind tested results are revealed.
 

eduardw

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Today I found some kind of bug. Not sure it is the already reported down mix bug.
I have my htpc connected to 3700h with HDMI and sound is setup for 7.1 output. When there is no sound from the pc the denon input shows multichannel input 7.1. When I play a stereo stream from the pc. And use the surround multi in +Dsur.
The the sound of the center channel is very distorted. When i choose multi channel stereo the sound of the center channel is also fine. But when I setup my sound card in the pc for seteo only so no 7.1 output. The I can choose dolby audio dolby surround the sound of the center channel is fine.

Any suggestion.

HI to quote myself, did any of you also experience this behavior or willing to test it. Testing for me was very easy because for front i use the pre outs so i could switch the amp for the frons off and only listen to the center channel.

Eduard
 

Pdxwayne

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4BSST vs A21 is very different. I most likely shall fail a DBT in that too.

Try a DBT using a receiver like x3700h as power amp and A21 as power amp. On demanding tracks. That is the sort of difference I’m talking about.
Have you compared x3700h preout to A21 vs P6 to A21 to same demanding speakers?
 

alexb997

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As you see, peak performance with the amplifiers off is around 1.1 volts with SINAD of 101 dB which is excellent for an AVR. With the amps on, you are OK up to 1.4 volt output before it nose dives. So when selecting an external amplifier for channels beyond fronts, make sure it can output its maximum power at or below 1.4 volts (usually specified as "sensitivity").

We see that the optimal output level is around 0.7 volts which is quite low. If you are buying an external amplifier make sure its sensitive is no higher than 0.7 dB or you will suffer from degradation of the internal DAC and buffer stage in SR7015.

Hi,

In this post and others covering Marantz, there's a clear indication that when voltage goes higher on Pre-amp, it drops performance and specifically says "make sure the Amp is sensitive no higher than 0.7 dB"...

Question is HOW do I determine that? I do have this Classe' CA-2100 external amp, THIS IS THE SPEC, how do I determine how sensitive it maybe?

Specs.PNG
 

alexb997

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It does state 1.0Vrms for rated output at 8 ohms, which seems good. Does anyone know what that means in terms of 4 ohms?

I am reviewing other amps and many require 2.1 Vrms, or 1.4 Vrms... I guess mine with only 1 VRms, is gonna be easier to drive.
 

reg19

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Have you compared x3700h preout to A21 vs P6 to A21 to same demanding speakers?
I’ve spent hours doing this very thing. I can switch from x3700h/a21 to P6/A21 with a few clicks of my remote. All my notes above were about using the x3700H in preamp only mode.

BTW: a thread jack, but for some mysterious reason, the HEOS implementation of Amazon Music HD on this receiver sounds fantastic (unlike Tidal on HEOS). I just wish it were easier to use (it is not).
 

Chromatischism

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I’ve spent hours doing this very thing. I can switch from x3700h/a21 to P6/A21 with a few clicks of my remote. All my notes above were about using the x3700H in preamp only mode.

BTW: a thread jack, but for some mysterious reason, the HEOS implementation of Amazon Music HD on this receiver sounds fantastic (unlike Tidal on HEOS). I just wish it were easier to use (it is not).
Check that your settings are the same; often changes are per-input only.
 

reg19

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Sancus

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I assume it depends on your room & also on the quality and frequency response of your speakers. With my current speakers, I have used the Audyssey MultiEQ Editor app (on iOS) and have always preferred Pure Direct in Preamp mode.

I'm puzzled by the app use, Pure Direct disables Audyssey completely. And also all bass management unless you are using LFE+Main mode.
 

peng

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It does state 1.0Vrms for rated output at 8 ohms, which seems good. Does anyone know what that means in terms of 4 ohms?

The output specs are: 100 W, 8 ohms, 200 W 4 ohms, so that means 1.0 Vrms for rated output will apply to 4 ohms as well.
However, if the user only needs 100 W for his/her 4 ohm speakers, then only 0.7 V will be needed.
 

peng

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Have you compared x3700h preout to A21 vs P6 to A21 to same demanding speakers?

If I remember right, the speakers he used weren't that demanding. Yes there are going to be impedance dips but the sensitivity are quite high. In preamp mode the X3700H's pre out at 2 V had 97.5 dB SINAD, that should render the A21 the bottleneck in terms of SINAD. And with 2 V input, the A21 would be driven to output 379 W into 8 Ohms and double that into 4 Ohms, that would exceed the maximum power handling capability of many speakers.
 

Svet

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With native app, one has to use Airplay (which does not stream in Hi Res). This is true for both Qobuz & Amazon Music HD.

Fine, what if I am open to connecting my PC to the AVR via USB / HDMI? Best ways to get Hi Res audio from Qobuz / Amazon Music HD to the AVR?
I'm using a PC, connected both to HDMI In on Denon, and via USB to an external DAC, whose RCA Out then go to the CD IN of Denon. There you have the choice of using the Denon DAC or the Ext. one (choosing sound output on the PC). Then you can listen, through all the native PC apps (AmazonHD, Tidal, Qobuz, etc) and compare your DACs.
 

peng

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With native app, one has to use Airplay (which does not stream in Hi Res). This is true for both Qobuz & Amazon Music HD.

Fine, what if I am open to connecting my PC to the AVR via USB / HDMI? Best ways to get Hi Res audio from Qobuz / Amazon Music HD to the AVR?

I would probably use an good quality external asynchronous usb dac with the PC, and use its analog output with the AVR's analog input, since you indicated you prefer the pure direct mode. That way you can bypass the AVR's DAC whether the difference is audible to you or not.
 

Pdxwayne

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If I remember right, the speakers he used weren't that demanding. Yes there are going to be impedance dips but the sensitivity are quite high. In preamp mode the X3700H's pre out at 2 V had 97.5 dB SINAD, that should render the A21 the bottleneck in terms of SINAD. And with 2 V input, the A21 would be driven to output 379 W into 8 Ohms and double that into 4 Ohms, that would exceed the maximum power handling capability of many speakers.
In Parasound site, I see this for A21:

S/N ratio:
112 dB, input shorted, IHF A-weighted

Not sure how it is related to SINAD of Denon.

Would this info tell you enough about A21 to say that it is the bottleneck of SINAD?
 

peng

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In Parasound site, I see this for A21:

S/N ratio:
112 dB, input shorted, IHF A-weighted

Not sure how it is related to SINAD of Denon.

Would this info tell you enough about A21 to say that it is the bottleneck of SINAD?

For SINAD comparison with the A21, you should look at its specified THD which is:

Total Harmonic Distortion
< 0.2 % at full power
< 0.03 % at typical listening levels

0.2% is -54 dB
0.03% is -70.45 dB

So the SINAD of the A21 would be approx. 54 dB at rated output, and 70.4 dB at what they considered typical listening levels. Now that's just the specifications, for real world bench tests, you can refer to the Stereophile review's graph below:

Note that it's for the improved A21+, expect the A21 to have slightly higher THD+N, and less powerful.

Parasound Halo A 21+ power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

4 Ohm load:

1606412874374.png


8 Ohm load:

1606412936962.png
 

Carnajo

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Does anyone know whether a 1600/1700/2600/2700 perform similarly or whether there are fundamental differences between the lower models and these (besides having fewer channels/features?)
 
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