Deciding Between NCX500, Purifi Eigentakt and Nilai

[Matias]

My Apollon amps (I bought 3 already) also took forever to ship, a shame it has not improved years later... But they are worth it.

 

[ahard]

My Apollon amps (I bought 3 already) also took forever to ship, a shame it has not improved years later... But they are worth it.

What was the reason for the delays in receiving your order?

 

[CleanSound]

Well I finally heard from Tibor. According to him it'll be another 10 working days (April 1 instead of Mar 12-14) before my amp is finished. Which would end up being 48 working days (Jan 25 to April 1) instead of 30 days for a premium build. Apparently, there was some sort of delay in the paint shop. I'm a little disappointed at this moment. Apollon's communication is not the best. I wish that they would have reached out to me and let me know that there will be a delay. You shouldn't have to chase them down just to get a response. I hope that the amp is very good bc I'm starting to regret going this route.

Tibor responded to me yesterday regarding my AP report. Without discloses too much, he said he had something that came up and that he will send my AP report in a few days.

So far, we have someone who got their premium amp in about 30 days, I got mine in 60 days and you are scheduled to get yours in about 48 days.

The issue is two folds, (1) his website needs to be updated to set the proper expectation stating "Up to 60 days from the day you place your order to the day you receive your order." (2) being responsive and proactively let customers know if their order is going to be delayed. Yeah, I don't know what is going on there, I wonder if the business culture in Slovenia is different and more layback or maybe he is just that busy or his vendors are delayed and not doing a good job communicating to him.

I also wonder how many people works in his shop and how much they are backlogged, maybe hire some part time help?

The way how I look at it is that, his products are excellent from my first hand experience, and people are getting their orders. . .albeit takes a very long time, there are no shadiness with his business and there are no reliability and QC issues reported to the best of my knowledge at least. So give it a bit more time and just kick back pop open a bottle of wine. Right now, I am thoroughly enjoying my amp.

EDIT: Also remember I tagged on a pretty comprehensive AP report to my order, so that took extra time. So my 60 days may be an anomaly compared to others.

 

[CleanSound]

My Apollon amps (I bought 3 already) also took forever to ship, a shame it has not improved years later... But they are worth it.

Which ones do you have?

 

[poopy]

Tibor responded to me yesterday regarding my AP report. Without discloses too much, he said he had something that came up and that he will send my AP report in a few days.

So far, we have someone who got their premium amp in about 30 days, I got mine in 60 days and you are scheduled to get yours in about 48 days.

The issue is two folds, (1) his website needs to be updated to set the proper expectation stating "Up to 60 days from the day you place your order to the day you receive your order." (2) being responsive and proactively let customers know if their order is going to be delayed. Yeah, I don't know what is going on there, I wonder if the business culture in Slovenia is different and more layback or maybe he is just that busy or his vendors are delayed and not doing a good job communicating to him.

I also wonder how many people works in his shop and how much they are backlogged, maybe hire some part time help?

The way how I look at it is that, his products are excellent from my first hand experience, and people are getting their orders. . .albeit takes a very long time, there are no shadiness with his business and there are no reliability and QC issues reported to the best of my knowledge at least. So give it a bit more time and just kick back pop open a bottle of wine. Right now, I am thoroughly enjoying my amp.

To reassure you, I dealt with Apollon audio twice and each time 1 month for Tibor = 2 months for rest of the world. Space-time in Slovenia seems to be very deformed….
4 months seeems to be the actual timeline for a multichannel amp.

 

[CleanSound]

To reassure you, I dealt with Apollon audio twice and each time 1 month for Tibor = 2 months for rest of the world. Space-time in Slovenia seems to be very deformed….
4 months seeems to be the actual timeline for a multichannel amp.

Yeah, I think at this point potential customers just need to set the right expectation, that it takes a while. The way how I treated it was quality craftsmanship takes time, I don't want them rushing my order and not put the time in to get everything perfect.

 

[ahard]

To reassure you, I dealt with Apollon audio twice and each time 1 month for Tibor = 2 months for rest of the world. Space-time in Slovenia seems to be very deformed….
4 months seeems to be the actual timeline for a multichannel amp.

Yes I think my concept of time was warped by thinking 30 working days is just that. But as you said over there it’s probably more like 60.

 

[ahard]

Yeah, I think at this point potential customers just need to set the right expectation, that it takes a while. The way how I treated it was quality craftsmanship takes time, I don't want them rushing my order and not put the time in to get everything perfect.

I agree. There needs to be a level set of expectations. Like real world wait times are probably more like 60 working days, which translates to about 4 months for those of us over on this side of the Atlantic.

 

[CleanSound]

I agree. There needs to be a level set of expectations. Like real world wait times are probably more like 60 working days, which translates to about 4 months for those of us over on this side of the Atlantic.

The other thing to keep in mind is that these amps are all custom made one by one by a boutique company, they are not mass produced like Marantz or even McIntosh.

So based on all the information I gathered, for the Lux edition at least, the case is custom CNC made, they are not off the shelf case you can buy from some manufacturer. I've seen the CNC model myself because Tibor showed it to me to illustrate where the power bottom is located. Then the case gets sent out to a vendor to either paint or anodized, I would presume Tibor has to wait for a batch of cases to be ready before sending them out to keep cost at bay, as it would be hard to imagine he sends one case out at a time to get it painted or anodized. When the case comes back, it has to go through UV printing on the back panel for all the labels, electrical warnings and the serial number (which is pretty neat how they print the serial on, instead of just a sticker), then they finally assemble the amp then QC before it gets shipped out. And I am not sure what the custom/export process is in Slovenia, not sure how export friendly Slovenia is?

So the key takeaway for me is that, these are very custom amps build by hand one by one and since time and space is warped in Slovenia, one just need to kick back with a glass of wine and enjoy their current system until the masterpiece arrives.

 

[ahard]

The other thing to keep in mind is that these amps are all custom made one by one by a boutique company, they are not mass produced like Marantz or even McIntosh.

So based on all the information I gathered, for the Lux edition at least, the case is custom CNC made, they are not off the shelf case you can buy from some manufacturer. I've seen the CNC model myself because Tibor showed it to me to illustrate where the power bottom is located. Then the case gets sent out to a vendor to either paint or anodized, I would presume Tibor has to wait for a batch of cases to be ready before sending them out to keep cost at bay, as it would be hard to imagine he sends one case out at a time to get it painted or anodized. When the case comes back, it has to go through UV printing on the back panel for all the labels, electrical warnings and the serial number (which is pretty neat how they print the serial on, instead of just a sticker), then they finally assemble the amp then QC before it gets shipped out. And I am not sure what the custom/export process is in Slovenia, not sure how export friendly Slovenia is?

So the key takeaway for me is that, these are very custom amps build by hand one by one and since time and space is warped in Slovenia, one just need to kick back with a glass of wine and enjoy their current system until the masterpiece arrives.

I hear what you're saying and I agree. I just wonder if Tibor is the only person involved in the building them or does he have another person or several people who build the amps? And as you mentioned, I'd imagine that he would send multiple cases to the painter so that the cost of the paint jobs are lower.

Anyway, I do love a glass of wine while watching movies.

 

[ZZM]

I also ordered an NCx500 amp from Apollon around December 26th (Dec 29th).
It arrived today and goes into my rack tomorrow.

Hi !

I have a little question, I have the 5 channel NCx500 model, and the case is very hot (to the touch) in use, like 45/46°C.
It is placed in a TV cabinet (which is 6cm away from the wall, not stuck to) with the back completely open as you can see in the photo.

I had a 3-channel Audiophonics Purifi 1ET400 which ran much cooler. But Tibor told me that the NCx500 runs hotter and furthermore, I have 5 channels and a bigger power supply here. I would just like to be reassured that I am not the only one with this model that has such a high temperature in use.

Did you noticed that too ? Thanks.

 

[aitsu]

Hi !

I have a little question, I have the 5 channel NCx500 model, and the case is very hot (to the touch) in use, like 45/46°C.
It is placed in a TV cabinet with the back completely open as you can see in the photo.

I had a 3-channel Audiophonics Purifi 1ET400 which ran much cooler. But Tibor told me that the NCx500 runs hotter and furthermore, I have 5 channels and a bigger power supply here. I would just like to be reassured that I am not the only one with this model that has such a high temperature in use.

Did you noticed that too ? Thanks.

Mine is in a rack in another room, so I'm not super aware of its temperature. It also sits right above a McIntosh 8207 so I wouldn't be surprised if it actually turns out warmer than yours.

That said, I'll run it for a bit today and take some measurements.

 

[ZZM]

Mine is in a rack in another room, so I'm not super aware of its temperature. It also sits right above a McIntosh 8207 so I wouldn't be surprised if it actually turns out warmer than yours.

That said, I'll run it for a bit today and take some measurements.

That's what I thought when I saw the photos of your room (very clean by the way). Mine is in the living room, and the room temperature is 23/24°C at the moment.

Thank you in any case for the measurements, it’s very nice !

 

[aitsu]

That's what I thought when I saw the photos of your room (very clean by the way). Mine is in the living room, and the room temperature is 23/24°C at the moment.

Thank you in any case for the measurements, it’s very nice !

My ambient is much lower than yours as my room is in the basement.

Ambient: 16.3-16.7 C
Powered off temp: 19.1 C
Powered on idle: 20 C

1/2 hour mixed music (atmos / stereo) - amps : 30 C - McIntosh 31.7 C
1 hour mixed music (atmos / stereo) - amps : 34.6 C - McIntosh 36.8 C

1/2 hour mixed music (atmos / stereo) - case temp: 23.8 C front - 26.9 C back
1 hour mixed music (atmos / stereo) - case temp: 28.3 C front - 30.6 C back

It's definitely still climbing, and I wouldn't consider this pushing anything. My wife is working so I'm sitting at -35db on the anthem which is still reasonably loud considering the room, the power the amp puts out, and the sensitivity of the speakers.

I'll turn it up a little more just to check for the next half hour.
I could easily see this getting to 40/45.

Just as a note while listening to music, I pulled the specs for the SMPS and the amplifier modules and they're actually rated to much higher temperatures.

The SMPS is going to operate until it gets to 95C before thermal shutoff.
The amplifier modules will operate until 75C before hysteresis occurs and 85C before thermal shutoff.

 

[ZZM]

My ambient is much lower than yours as my room is in the basement.

Ambient: 16.3-16.7 C
Powered off temp: 19.1 C
Powered on idle: 20 C

1/2 hour mixed music (atmos / stereo) - amps : 30 C - McIntosh 31.7 C
1 hour mixed music (atmos / stereo) - amps : 34.6 C - McIntosh 36.8 C

1/2 hour mixed music (atmos / stereo) - case temp: 23.8 C front - 26.9 C back
1 hour mixed music (atmos / stereo) - case temp: 28.3 C front - 30.6 C back

It's definitely still climbing, and I wouldn't consider this pushing anything. My wife is working so I'm sitting at -35db on the anthem which is still reasonably loud considering the room, the power the amp puts out, and the sensitivity of the speakers.

I'll turn it up a little more just to check for the next half hour.
I could easily see this getting to 40/45.

Just as a note while listening to music, I pulled the specs for the SMPS and the amplifier modules and they're actually rated to much higher temperatures.

The SMPS is going to operate until it gets to 95C before thermal shutoff.
The amplifier modules will operate until 75C before hysteresis occurs and 85C before thermal shutoff.

Thanks a lot for these measurements.

Mine is at 45°C on top and sides (didn't check at the back, I'll see tomorrow maybe) after about 3 hours (it rises gradually) and it seems to stabilize after that.
But that's whatever I listen to, TV, Music, Film, even when I play PS5 with my headset (so non sound coming from speakers...).

I set the gain of the NCx500 to 20.5db since the Anthem can output up to 5.2 VRMS. I don't know if it affects the heat or not.

 

[aitsu]

Looks like it's tapering off now.
Increased the volume for the last half an hour.

Temperature climbed a bit more, but it honestly seems to be slowing down.
1.5 hour mixed music (atmos / stereo) - amps : 37.2 C - McIntosh 37.0 C
1.5 hour mixed music (atmos / stereo) - case temp: 30.3 C front - 34.3 C back

The 8207 drives my atmos channels so it's not getting much work to do.
The one other thing I will say about the Mc, the front panel has not moved from 20C. I bet that's because of the glass acting as an insulator.

 

[amper42]

One more question, much fuss has been made about the Purifi 1ET400A Eigentakt by reviewers. What is it that distinguishes the Eigentakt from the NCX500 or Nilai (if anything)?

​

While you won't hear much of a difference between these three amps. If you measure the Purifi against the Hypex offerings with Kill-a-watt you find the Purifi uses almost half the power while idle and at normal volumes compared to the Hypex NCx500 and Nilai options.

People say they want the NCx500 as it claims higher power abilities BUT most listeners are not exceeding 75dB base listening levels for normal use. Reasonably efficient speakers, don't require as much power as you might expect. If I use 10 watts as my baseline with the Revel F328Be it's really loud! If you try to maximize the power of a Purifi amp you won't want to be in the same room.

As all of the amps sound very similar, why would I want to pay almost twice as much for power and generate more heat with the Hypex options versus the amazingly energy efficient Purifi design which by the way sounds absolutely fantastic?

 

[amper42]

Hi !

I have a little question, I have the 5 channel NCx500 model, and the case is very hot (to the touch) in use, like 45/46°C.
It is placed in a TV cabinet (which is 6cm away from the wall, not stuck to) with the back completely open as you can see in the photo.

I had a 3-channel Audiophonics Purifi 1ET400 which ran much cooler. But Tibor told me that the NCx500 runs hotter and furthermore, I have 5 channels and a bigger power supply here. I would just like to be reassured that I am not the only one with this model that has such a high temperature in use.

Did you noticed that too ? Thanks.

This is yet another example of how the Purifi amps run much cooler and use considerably less power than NCx500. The Purifi amps offer energy and heat efficiency that the NCx500 can't match. If you want a cool running amp Purifi should be on your radar.

 

[amper42]

My Apollon amps (I bought 3 already) also took forever to ship, a shame it has not improved years later... But they are worth it.

I would highly recommend using Fred at Boxem Audio for NCx500 and Purifi amps. My 4215/E2 arrived within 48 hours of shipping to my home in the USA from Boxem via DHL. Fred builds great amps. I really appreciate how streamlined the service was compared to other vendors who made me wait a considerable time for shipment and delivery.

 

[ZZM]

This is yet another example of how the Purifi amps run much cooler and use considerably less power than NCx500. The Purifi amps offer energy and heat efficiency that the NCx500 can't match. If you want a cool running amp Purifi should be on your radar.

Hi, that's why I'm asking from other people that have NCx500 if it's "normal".
Tibor (from Apollon), and he's not the only one, told me that for the same price it was better choise to take an NCx500 amp (better price to performance ratio).
I just didn't think there was such a difference in heat with the Purifi (and in my case I only had 3 modules with a 1200W power supply compared to 5 modules here and a 3000W power supply that I have now).