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CHORD M-Scaler Review (Upsampler)

Rate this product:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 358 88.2%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 13 3.2%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther

    Votes: 7 1.7%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 28 6.9%

  • Total voters
    406

DonR

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Okay, so while it does not benefit anything audibly (when correctly double blind tested and so on), it also does not degrade the original signal.
Are there then objective reasons to avoid it all together? for instance could it cause latency/stutter problems when applied versus not applied, or is that only caused by not optimal USB-connections, or buffer settings.

sorry for a lot of Q:)
It should, in theory, be benign as long as it is operating correctly. Your bank account will feel an impact but for some that is also benign.
 

AdrianusG

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Complete waste of money.
Keith
HI Keith,

i suppose you're referring to the M-Scaler, for which i already knew it's a complete waste of money:), however, i was referring to using Up-Sampling
via a software program such as Foobar or in my case JRiver.
 

AdrianusG

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FWIW, i am not, or ever was interested in this Chord product, even if i had the cash.

i just asked, because many pages back i thought i read that up-scaling (in general) reduces DR, probably i understood this wrong though.
 

antcollinet

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HI Keith,

i suppose you're referring to the M-Scaler, for which i already knew it's a complete waste of money:), however, i was referring to using Up-Sampling
via a software program such as Foobar or in my case JRiver

Upsampling gives the processing pipeline more work to do.

DSP hardware will run hotter (assuming it doesn't downsample again)
Any buffers will be more sensitive to data over/under-run - or will have to be increased in size.
Some interfaces (eg Toslinik/SPDIF) will not be as stable at longer cable lengths.

etc.
 

AdrianusG

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Upsampling gives the processing pipeline more work to do.

DSP hardware will run hotter (assuming it doesn't downsample again)
Any buffers will be more sensitive to data over/under-run - or will have to be increased in size.
Some interfaces (eg Toslinik/SPDIF) will not be as stable at longer cable lengths.

etc.
OKay, all clear now

Thanks Guys:)
 

voodooless

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DSP hardware will run hotter (assuming it doesn't downsample again)
Any buffers will be more sensitive to data over/under-run - or will have to be increased in size.
Some interfaces (eg Toslinik/SPDIF) will not be as stable at longer cable lengths.
What? Toslink will be less stable if there is an (A)SRC behind it? That’s a first… how does cable length influence this? It’s up to the SPDIF receiver to recover the clock, that’s not the task of an (A)SRC.
 

antcollinet

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What? Toslink will be less stable if there is an (A)SRC behind it? That’s a first… how does cable length influence this? It’s up to the SPDIF receiver to recover the clock, that’s not the task of an (A)SRC.
I'm stating this in the case that upsampled data is transmitted on the toslink cable. Obviously no difference if the upsampling is done after the data has arrived by toslink.
 
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voodooless

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I'm stating this in the case here that upsampled data is transmitted on the toslink cable.
Ah, okay, thanks for clearing that up :) But yes, more bandwidth might it harder to transmit. So would a nativity samples file of higher sample rate for that matter.

The most important thing here though, is that upsampling does not add any new information. You can’t make up what is not there in the first place. What it may do is have better filtering at the end of the spectrum: steeper filter, better attenuation, etc. Audibility of this is highly suspect.

And also don’t forget that basically any modern DAC will already upsample the signal about 8 to 64x so that the delta sigma modulators can do their work properly.
 

earlevel

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What exactly does up-scaling do with the signal, (for good or bad)?, currently i use Sox in JRiver , and does it have any audible benefits at all?
Just adding a different viewpoint...

First I'll state what you already know: Once sampled, you can never get more information from those samples. Let's say it's 48 kHz sampling, with a bandlimiting lowpass filter below half the sample rate, starting to roll off at 20 kHz.

If you need a different sample rate (maybe because your player doesn't support 48k), you could play it back to analog, and sample it again. But ultimately it's math and that can be done in the digital domain. You could resample it to 96 kHz, but it changes only the rate, the frequency response still drops off at 20k be cause that's all the original samples had.

OK, "my player doesn't support playback at 48k" is unlikely. Why else might we want a higher sample rate?

1) For playback higher sample rate lets us use a simpler analog filter in the DAC. More relaxed slope, and avoiding phase changes near the top end of hearing. You still need digital filters to raise the sample rate. Again, they won't improve the original sampling, but in normal music playback some latency is not a problem, so a good resample at least won't harm the original sampling while taking it to a higher rate. And the higher rate will allow the DAC to (potentially) be gentler and therefore (potentially—I'm not saying you will hear this, necessarily) change the original recording less.

2) Different use case—signal processing, such as making audio effects for the recording industry: Non-linear processes (compressors, limiters, fuzzbox and amp simulation, anything remotely like a signal clipper) create harmonic distortion. Clip a sine wave, and you have a waveform with additional harmonics. They can alias down into the audio band, and become easily noticeable (when the guitar play bends a string upward, you'll hear aliased tones move downward—at significant damage to the music). Upsampling for more headroom give more space above the audio band between spectral images (requires more explanation), so that they have a chance to fall off before projecting down into the audio band. For this use case, it's usually upsample, do the task (fuzzbox simulation, etc.), downsample to original rate. Typically, you might need 8x the standard rate for the oversampling, or higher.

Obviously, we're talking about #1 here. I mention #2 in part because people with a little understanding often make assumptions such as, "why don't we do everything at 96k? It will help audio plugins too, then they won't need to oversample." No, #2 typically needs a lot more oversampling to make sense than #1. Using a higher sample rate than you need has the downside of cutting your computation power by the same factor (you can do half as much at 96k as 48k).
 
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danadam

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Why else might we want a higher sample rate?

1) For playback higher sample rate lets us use a simpler analog filter in the DAC. More relaxed slope, and avoiding phase changes near the top end of hearing.
AFAIK for that reason most DACs will upsample the signal themselves anyway. In such case the reason for doing it yourself might be that you can do it better. Whether that is audible is, as usual, a separate issue.
 

earlevel

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AFAIK for that reason most DACs will upsample the signal themselves anyway. In such case the reason for doing it yourself might be that you can do it better. Whether that is audible is, as usual, a separate issue.
Yes, and of course from Amir's original post for this thread, "Company claims that one needs huge number of taps for better fidelity, literally going to millions of them." They are saying "we can do this step better".

Even if technically better, there are limits as to what can be perceived, and that's where the arguments come in. People don't usually spend significant cash for "it didn't make it worse", so it comes down to "did it make it better?" In some cases, it can be more like, "your argument won me over, I have enough cash and want the best..." ;)
 

Ken Tajalli

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Hi Everyone,

I have a question about up-scaling in general (not perse with this M- scaler), for instance I use JRiver for that.

Does up-scaling reduce the Dynamic Range of the original incoming signal or music, and is that always the case?

Sorry, I hope some knowledgeable people here can enlighten me a bit

All help is appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Ad
Upsampling these days, achieves next to nothing. If the DAC is below par, and its filters leave a fair bit to be desired (no longer the case these days) then there might be a situation that upsampling to a higher rate, could shift ultrasonic artefacts to well beyong audio band, therefore yield a benefit.
In case of Chord DACs, they all upsample greatly internally. Say a Hugo2 , upsamples up to 256 times, using a proprietary algorithm. The effect of such upsampling is disputed on ASR to death! The effect, also can not be objectively verified, at least not by traditional methods, hence . . . .!
Indeed, Rob Watts, the often mocked designer of Chord DACs, himself, advises not to upsample using software, as it would bypass the internal upsampling that his DSP core would otherwise implement.
So whether you buy into Chord's claims about their devices or not, the universal advice is, not to upsample.
There is of course softwares that aim to implement various types of filtering, even million tap upsampling.
To my humble ears, none are effective.
Also to my humble ears, Chord DACs do sound exceptionally good. But is it the upsampling used, or is it just a good output section, I wouldn't know.
 

Purité Audio

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If you just want another box, that does nothing…

Keith
 

AdrianusG

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Ah, okay, thanks for clearing that up :) But yes, more bandwidth might it harder to transmit. So would a nativity samples file of higher sample rate for that matter.

The most important thing here though, is that upsampling does not add any new information. You can’t make up what is not there in the first place. What it may do is have better filtering at the end of the spectrum: steeper filter, better attenuation, etc. Audibility of this is highly suspect.

And also don’t forget that basically any modern DAC will already upsample the signal about 8 to 64x so that the delta sigma modulators can do their work properly.
Hi,

Thanks for answer, but does that mean that if I up- sample in JRiver , my DAC then will skip this process, because it detects it's already done, or does the DAC it one more time (extra so to speak)? it's brand new by the way, i bought the Eversolo Z8 just a week ago.
 

voodooless

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Hi,

Thanks for answer, but does that mean that if I up- sample in JRiver , my DAC then will skip this process, because it detects it's already done, or does the DAC it one more time (extra so to speak)?
Nope, the DAC always does it anyway.
 

AdrianusG

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Nope, the DAC always does it anyway.
Okay thanks,

i will change the setting in JRiver back to "no change" for every incoming sampling rate then.
Doing things double makes no sense, especially when there's no audible effect.
 

bearcatsandor

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Not true. What M-Scaler does has nothing to do with money or wallets or anything tangible, or quantifiable for that matter. Rob "The Casanova" Watts explained this before - you guys are not paying attention. I think in a Canjam earlier this year he said, and I quote:

The only way of actually recognizing that you are not hearing true transparency is if it is more emotionally involving or not more emotionally involving.

Words to live by those are. Take note gentlemen.
No wait. Now I know what the M-scaler is doing, and it's brilliant! It has an advanced AI that knows what music I am playing and tracks my emotional state. When I'm playing a Yoko Kanno piece that brings tears to my eyes because I love it or I'm playing a modern country song that makes me angry, it becomes less transparent. It's only transparent when I'm playing elevator music that has no effect on my emotions at all. It's actually an overpriced mood stabilizer, which is great for those of us that live with depression, bipolar, or mania especially after we glance at the bank account after purchasing it.
 

AdrianusG

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No wait. Now I know what the M-scaler is doing, and it's brilliant! It has an advanced AI that knows what music I am playing and tracks my emotional state. When I'm playing a Yoko Kanno piece that brings tears to my eyes because I love it or I'm playing a modern country song that makes me angry, it becomes less transparent. It's only transparent when I'm playing elevator music that has no effect on my emotions at all. It's actually an overpriced mood stabilizer, which is great for those of us that live with depression, bipolar, or mania especially after we glance at the bank account after purchasing it.
Ahhh yes, Yoko Kanno,

Especially the music from Cowboy Bebop is brilliant, but she made music for a lot of Anime.
 
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