Cheap Pioneer speakers appear to be on closeout sale, SP-FS53 and the SW-10 subwoofer.

[KaiserSoze]

I don't know whether anyone here knows or would care, but I just thought I would mention that on the Pioneer Home USA web site, the SP-FS52 tower and the SW-10 subwoofer are both on sale, possibly for closeout. A couple of months back they did this with the sealed sub SW-E10. It was dirt cheap for a while, then suddenly they showed it as "out of stock" or some such thing and then everywhere else you could find it, the price was about double what it was just a few weeks earlier. Anyway, at present the FS52 is $100 and the ported sub SW-10 is $200. Obviously these speakers don't make the A-team however when you consider that you can get a pair of the towers plus the sub for a total of $400, that seems like a great value to me. But then, if they're this cheap, they can't be any good, right? I have no idea, but the fact that they're cheap doesn't mean that they aren't any good. You probably could have listened to them at BB at one point. In any case they're just about bound to be a great value, considering that nowadays about all you ordinarily can buy with $1000 is a pair of little bookshelf speakers with no real bass capability but that are deemed worthy because they use waveguides to force the tweeter's directivity to match the directivity of the woofer at the crossover. I'm bewildered by how much a pair of dainty little bookshelf speakers cost these days. Forty years ago no one would have given you $200 for a pair of bookshelf speakers that nowadays will sell for $1000 the pair and be regarded as a good buy. Expectations have changed to say the least. Used to be that bass mattered. Nowadays you're supposed to know that you have to buy a subwoofer and not be bothered by the fact that that little speaker wouldn't even go as low as 150 Hz were it not for the use of a port. Wait, what was I talking about? Oh yeah, the Pioneer speakers that are on sale. It's got to be a great value, 'cause the combined surface area of the three "woofers" is equivalent to a single driver with an actual 8" radiating surface area, roughly equivalent to a 10" driver when measured across the frame. Which ain't bad, except Xmax isn't going to be the same, and to get Fs to be as low as it really should be for a woofer, they'd have to either make the cones out of lead or else make the suspensions more compliant than it would likely be possible to make them. I have no idea how they turn those little speakers into woofers. Must be some kind of magic. Oh wait, they don't. I forgot, they rely on the port to do the job of the woofer, and you're expected to know that you have to buy a subwoofer. Anyway, you can buy a pair of FS52 and the ported sub all for the low low price of $400, which is without question an honest-to-God bargain in today's world, with or without real woofers. Hopefully I managed not to digress ...

 

[Ericglo]

I saw that. I know Dennis modded another Pioneer. I wonder how much it would take to mod this one.

 

[KaiserSoze]

I saw that. I know Dennis modded another Pioneer. I wonder how much it would take to mod this one.

That's a very good question, and one that I had as well. Somewhere toward the end of the thread on that modification someone had posted indicating that on another forum there was discussion to the effect that a single capacitor change was all that was needed to do the same tweeter replacement. I spent maybe a couple of hours trying to chase it down, but got nowhere. It was easy to find the forum site where the discussion was supposed to be found, but what I found was some sort of denial that it had been done. I've forgotten exactly, but it wasn't anything like what I was expecting based on the comment that had been posted here. I've never heard either the little speaker or the little tower so I probably shouldn't speculate, but in relative terms, it is bound to be a more accurate speaker than most all the speakers that people my age listened to in college back in the 70s. If there is any significant issue it will most likely be with too much on-axis high frequency, which can be corrected through the simple addition of an L-pad. The only problem that I would consider both likely and non-trivial to fix is lack of bass. I think of speakers of this sort, little towers with itty-bitty woofers, as being similar to little satellites except capable of being played a little bit louder before the distortion becomes too much. Some people might not need a subwoofer with them, but I certainly would. The bottom line is this: these speakers are very likely good speakers, probably not great but good enough to enjoy without being frustrated, and when you consider that cost for a pair of the towers plus one subwoofer is only $400, it seems a no-brainer. There is also a package deal that includes two of the small satellites (that you can do the mod on) and the center. Don't recall if it also includes the sub. It might. This has just about got to be a closeout sale. They sold off the sealed version of the sub, the SW-E10 I think it was, earlier this year. They were dirt cheap for a short while, and then suddenly you couldn't find it without having to pay the original MSRP or thereabouts. This is probably what's going to happen to these speakers sometime this summer. Pioneer will sell out, then a few on-line retailers that had the foresight to put away some in a warehouse somewhere will slowly sell off their remaining stock at high profit. If it weren't for the fact that I would have to put them in storage at this point, I would be spending the $400, because I just can't get my head around the idea of spending a thousand or more dollars on a speaker/subwoofer setup.

If you have any success chasing down the other forum posts about replacing the tweeter in this speaker and only needing to replace a single capacitor, I would very much like to know where to find it.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

That's a very good question, and one that I had as well. Somewhere toward the end of the thread on that modification someone had posted indicating that on another forum there was discussion to the effect that a single capacitor change was all that was needed to do the same tweeter replacement. I spent maybe a couple of hours trying to chase it down, but got nowhere. It was easy to find the forum site where the discussion was supposed to be found, but what I found was some sort of denial that it had been done. I've forgotten exactly, but it wasn't anything like what I was expecting based on the comment that had been posted here. I've never heard either the little speaker or the little tower so I probably shouldn't speculate, but in relative terms, it is bound to be a more accurate speaker than most all the speakers that people my age listened to in college back in the 70s. If there is any significant issue it will most likely be with too much on-axis high frequency, which can be corrected through the simple addition of an L-pad. The only problem that I would consider both likely and non-trivial to fix is lack of bass. I think of speakers of this sort, little towers with itty-bitty woofers, as being similar to little satellites except capable of being played a little bit louder before the distortion becomes too much. Some people might not need a subwoofer with them, but I certainly would. The bottom line is this: these speakers are very likely good speakers, probably not great but good enough to enjoy without being frustrated, and when you consider that cost for a pair of the towers plus one subwoofer is only $400, it seems a no-brainer. There is also a package deal that includes two of the small satellites (that you can do the mod on) and the center. Don't recall if it also includes the sub. It might. This has just about got to be a closeout sale. They sold off the sealed version of the sub, the SW-E10 I think it was, earlier this year. They were dirt cheap for a short while, and then suddenly you couldn't find it without having to pay the original MSRP or thereabouts. This is probably what's going to happen to these speakers sometime this summer. Pioneer will sell out, then a few on-line retailers that had the foresight to put away some in a warehouse somewhere will slowly sell off their remaining stock at high profit. If it weren't for the fact that I would have to put them in storage at this point, I would be spending the $400, because I just can't get my head around the idea of spending a thousand or more dollars on a speaker/subwoofer setup.

If you have any success chasing down the other forum posts about replacing the tweeter in this speaker and only needing to replace a single capacitor, I would very much like to know where to find it.

I modded all of the AJ Pioneer speakers--the 22 monitor, the C22 center, and the FS=52 and sold quite a few of them under the Affordable Accuracy moniker. They all involved replacement of the inferior tweeter with a cheap but excellent Vifa dome. For the 22, there was an easy mod that involved a single capacitor change. That still left a dip in the treble, but it sounded better than the original. The full mod involved a completely redesigned crossover, as did the other two mods. Of the 3 models, the stock FS-52 was the most colored in the lower treble, although all of them had a murky cast to that range. Even though the center channel has earned the worst reputation, that's only because the lack of treble clarity shows up most glaringly on dialog intelligibility. The center is actually the best of the three in terms of frequency response and quality control. Anyhow, the mod for the FS-52 is very complex due to the unusual wiring of the woofers, and although I have documented the build, it's only recommended for experienced enthusiasts who also have some time on their hands. Finally, as indicated in another post, there was nothing I could do to improve the bass extension. You can get down to 50 Hz with either the mod or the stock, but even that is something of a stretch.

 

[KaiserSoze]

I modded all of the AJ Pioneer speakers--the 22 monitor, the C22 center, and the FS=52 and sold quite a few of them under the Affordable Accuracy moniker. They all involved replacement of the inferior tweeter with a cheap but excellent Vifa dome. For the 22, there was an easy mod that involved a single capacitor change. That still left a dip in the treble, but it sounded better than the original. The full mod involved a completely redesigned crossover, as did the other two mods. Of the 3 models, the stock FS-52 was the most colored in the lower treble, although all of them had a murky cast to that range. Even though the center channel has earned the worst reputation, that's only because the lack of treble clarity shows up most glaringly on dialog intelligibility. The center is actually the best of the three in terms of frequency response and quality control. Anyhow, the mod for the FS-52 is very complex due to the unusual wiring of the woofers, and although I have documented the build, it's only recommended for experienced enthusiasts who also have some time on their hands. Finally, as indicated in another post, there was nothing I could do to improve the bass extension. You can get down to 50 Hz with either the mod or the stock, but even that is something of a stretch.

Wow, Dennis, thank you very much for clearing this all up very succinctly. If I understand correctly, you did a single-capacitor mod for the 22 (to accommodate the tweeter change), which was not entirely satisfactory such that it was subsequently replaced with a more ambitious mod, and you never attempted or took seriously a single-capacitor mod for the FS52. But this raises a couple more questions that I have to ask, begging your indulgence:

1. Is the full mod for the FS52 available online anywhere? If not, could you be persuaded to post it here? For my purposes, the ideal form is the schematic for the mod. If it shows which components are added/deleted/changed vs. the original, that's icing on the cake, and while I usually eat the icing, I like cake with or without icing. (And there is always the potential for the circuit to have changed so much that it wouldn't make much sense to approach it from the perspective of what changed to what, and what got added where, or deleted, etc.)

2. Although this is probably a stupid question, what would be your reaction to trying a single-capacitor mod on the FS52? Obviously if the original crossover points for the 22 vs. the 52 are different then the single replacement capacitor would likely need to be different (vs. the 22), and there could be an issue if the woofer sensitivity isn't the same as that of the woofer in the 22. BUT, the question is whether the swap of the tweeter plus a single capacitor (the same value as with the 22 or a more appropriate value) would likely lead to a better-sounding speaker compared to the FS52 out of the box. It wouldn't be perfect, obviously, but would it be an improvement?


THANK YOU!!

 

[zelig]

I have owned the front and center speakers and was not impressed. I am definitely not an audiophile but these just didn't bring my music alive. I bought into the hype that in retrospect has left me somewhat cynical of reviews. Perhaps I was overdue for that.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Wow, Dennis, thank you very much for clearing this all up very succinctly. If I understand correctly, you did a single-capacitor mod for the 22 (to accommodate the tweeter change), which was not entirely satisfactory such that it was subsequently replaced with a more ambitious mod, and you never attempted or took seriously a single-capacitor mod for the FS52. But this raises a couple more questions that I have to ask, begging your indulgence:

1. Is the full mod for the FS52 available online anywhere? If not, could you be persuaded to post it here? For my purposes, the ideal form is the schematic for the mod. If it shows which components are added/deleted/changed vs. the original, that's icing on the cake, and while I usually eat the icing, I like cake with or without icing. (And there is always the potential for the circuit to have changed so much that it wouldn't make much sense to approach it from the perspective of what changed to what, and what got added where, or deleted, etc.)

2. Although this is probably a stupid question, what would be your reaction to trying a single-capacitor mod on the FS52? Obviously if the original crossover points for the 22 vs. the 52 are different then the single replacement capacitor would likely need to be different (vs. the 22), and there could be an issue if the woofer sensitivity isn't the same as that of the woofer in the 22. BUT, the question is whether the swap of the tweeter plus a single capacitor (the same value as with the 22 or a more appropriate value) would likely lead to a better-sounding speaker compared to the FS52 out of the box. It wouldn't be perfect, obviously, but would it be an improvement?


THANK YOU!!

I drew up a word document that gives instructions for modding the 52's, along with a parts list and links. It really is a mess to implement, and I'm not positive anyone has completed one successfully. You're welcome to take a look at it--just email me : [email protected]

I honestly don't recall if I tried the one-cap, one tweet switcharoo for the 52. The evolution of the mod is kind of ancient history. If I had a 52 here, I would check it out for you. I might be able to simulate what would happen using my original design files, but that would depend on whether I bothered to keep the schematic for the stock 52. I'll check it out in any event.

 

[Ericglo]

I have owned the front and center speakers and was not impressed. I am definitely not an audiophile but these just didn't bring my music alive. I bought into the hype that in retrospect has left me somewhat cynical of reviews. Perhaps I was overdue for that.

I wasn't paying that close of attention, but wasn't there some hype on some forums over these speakers?

I saw these speakers once and wasn't overly impressed with what I saw. My only interest was when I saw that Dennis had played around with them.

I will say that the Elite speakers impressed me at Cedia one year. It was the first year of Atmos. I told Andrew that his demo was the most convincing display of Atmos that I had heard. I even dragged a bunch of people down to the demo room for a listen.

 

[Ericglo]

I was looking at the tower spec sheet. I didn't realize it was a 3 way. I thought it might be a 2 1/2.

I wonder how good the cabinet is. It would be interesting to see if other drivers could be dropped in like the SB ceramics.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I was looking at the tower spec sheet. I didn't realize it was a 3 way. I thought it might be a 2 1/2.

I wonder how good the cabinet is. It would be interesting to see if other drivers could be dropped in like the SB ceramics.

It's kind of a 2.75. The top midwoofer is engineered a little differently so it plays higher up than the bottom two woofs, but it overlaps with them for a wide range of frequencies. I left that part of the crossover in tact and simply added some components to provide better baffle step compensation and get a breakup mode in the top driver suppressed a little more.

 

[KaiserSoze]

It's kind of a 2.75. The top midwoofer is engineered a little differently so it plays higher up than the bottom two woofs, but it overlaps with them for a wide range of frequencies. I left that part of the crossover in tact and simply added some components to provide better baffle step compensation and get a breakup mode in the top driver suppressed a little more.

Sounds like maybe its a 3-way except without a high-pass section on the midrange? If that's what it is, it would be odd for sure, although as long as the top mid-woofer has the same Xmax and Xlim as the two lower drivers, so that it doesn't contribute more LF distortion than the other two, then it should be no harm no foul. Maybe what happened is that it started out as a 2.5 but then AJ decided that Fs for the two lower drivers needed to be lower so he added a little mass to the two lower drivers. Or increased their compliance. Or changed the magnets.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Sounds like maybe its a 3-way except without a high-pass section on the midrange? If that's what it is, it would be odd for sure, although as long as the top mid-woofer has the same Xmax and Xlim as the two lower drivers, so that it doesn't contribute more LF distortion than the other two, then it should be no harm no foul. Maybe what happened is that it started out as a 2.5 but then AJ decided that Fs for the two lower drivers needed to be lower so he added a little mass to the two lower drivers. Or increased their compliance. Or changed the magnets.

It is a bit odd, but kind of ingenious. My best guess is that the marketing department told him three "woofers" would look kind of neat, and the budgeting people told him the drivers had to be really inexpensive., and that he shouldn't get carried away with the crossover.

 

[KaiserSoze]

Darn it. The price on Pioneer's site just increased from $100 to $250 for the FS-52, and from $200 to $450 for the SW-10. B&H shows both as discontinued. PioneerHomeUSA has an eBay outlet and they still list the FS-52 there for $110 or $100 open box. They say they have just one of the SW-10 left and they list it for $300. There are other sellers that list the sub for less. But the chance to grab it for $200 is most likely gone. Just not good timing for me.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Darn it. The price on Pioneer's site just increased from $100 to $250 for the FS-52, and from $200 to $450 for the SW-10. B&H shows both as discontinued. PioneerHomeUSA has an eBay outlet and they still list the FS-52 there for $110 or $100 open box. They say they have just one of the SW-10 left and they list it for $300. There are other sellers that list the sub for less. But the chance to grab it for $200 is most likely gone. Just not good timing for me.

This ebay seller has the tower for $99, unless the price changes before you click on the link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-SP...noa=1&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1

 

[JohnBooty]

There are other sellers that list the sub for less. But the chance to grab it for $200 is most likely gone. Just not good timing for me.

The FS-52 are interesting at $100. I suspect they'd be better than a lot of cheap $200/pair bookshelves.

But I really can't imagine a reason to buy that subwoofer - I'm just curious, what's your attraction there?

FWIW, I owned the older SW-8 and it was pretty much useless. You really couldn't tell the thing was on. And not in the good, "this subwoofer is seamlessly integrated and unobtrusive" way.

 

[zelig]

The fs52's were frequently available for $69 from Frys. The c22 and bookshelf were similar. I think they were just about worth that. Off course, Frys is now on life support and those types of deals are history.

 

[KaiserSoze]

The FS-52 are interesting at $100. I suspect they'd be better than a lot of cheap $200/pair bookshelves.

But I really can't imagine a reason to buy that subwoofer - I'm just curious, what's your attraction there?

FWIW, I owned the older SW-8 and it was pretty much useless. You really couldn't tell the thing was on. And not in the good, "this subwoofer is seamlessly integrated and unobtrusive" way.

Thanks for the tip. Dennis Murphy also advised me that the SW-10 has a bad reputation. With the FS52 I would definitely want a subwoofer, but based on comments I've received, including yours, the SW-10 is probably not a good choice. There's not much that's more useless than a crappy subwoofer.

One of my concerns with the small towers is with the prospect for audible distortion even when played only moderately loud and at frequencies even in the mid-bass. There are ways to make the response of tiny woofers flat to below 100 Hz, but generally this implies a great amount of diaphragm excursion which overwhelms the limited Xmax of the small driver. You're not likely going to find a long voice coil behind that cone. You end up with an effective radiating surface area roughly equivalent to an 8" driver, but a good 8" woofer will have Xmax several times greater than what Xmax is likely to be in these little woofers. I have this same concern with all small towers and small bookshelf speakers.

 

[JohnBooty]

One of my concerns with the small towers is with the prospect for audible distortion even when played only moderately loud and at frequencies even in the mid-bass.

Yeah, any speakers that cheap are just a sea of compromises!

The BS22 do get loud enough for polite listening in a small/med room (sorry, haven't quantified with a decibel meter) before the woofers start flopping around. I suspect the FS52 would go harder enough to make them an interesting 2.0 system at $200/pair?

But, I'm also not sure the FS52 would be worth the added expense vs. bookshelves if crossing over to a sub and high-passing them.

 

[restorer-john]

Best thing I've heard all day. Those AJ speakers were an absolute disgrace to the Pioneer name. Good riddance I say.

 

[KaiserSoze]

Yeah, any speakers that cheap are just a sea of compromises!

The BS22 do get loud enough for polite listening in a small/med room (sorry, haven't quantified with a decibel meter) before the woofers start flopping around. I suspect the FS52 would go harder enough to make them an interesting 2.0 system at $200/pair?

But, I'm also not sure the FS52 would be worth the added expense vs. bookshelves if crossing over to a sub and high-passing them.

To my way of thinking the BS22 and other speakers of similar size generally start to distort heavily at frequency about an octave higher than the frequency at which I would want to crossover to a single subwoofer. As such I simply do not understand what they are for. My expectation is that the FS52 would likely be able to play low enough cleanly enough to properly interface to a monaural subwoofer just below 100 Hz. I would not expect to like the FS52 with the bass augmentation of a sub. But if a decent sub can be found for, say, $400, the total cost for the 2.1 setup would be less than a pair of most all other bookshelf speakers. It made sense to me, and still does, and even though I like those curved cabinets, I am still concerned that they are maybe just too cheaply constructed, with too many corners having been cut. The woofer probably doesn't have more than +/- 2 mm of linear excursion, for example. So I'm back on the fence for now. Nevertheless, for anyone looking to spend no more than $700 or $800 to get a stereo system that sounds decent and that includes a satisfactory bass capability that is clean, I just don't know of any anything else that fits the description. Of course people who don't care much about bass and who might not be sensitive to non-linear distortion will be quick to recommend their favorite pair of $1000+/pair bookshelf speakers even though they cost more and can't play bass loudly and cleanly at the same time.