Center channel advice, discussion & measurements

[rynberg]

I literally asked for another center thats in its price range and can compete. Lets say up to $2k. Prove me wrong i dont give a crap, i simply want the best i can possibly afford and right now it's the C100 from everything i've seen so far. Show me what you would choose for that budget...

Your posts don't seem to be asking for a better speaker. What are your current fronts?

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Running a crossover lower than 80 Hz very rarely offers any benefits whatsoever, especially in a center channel. And especially in a small center channel with small woofers like the C100.

What does commercial cinema have anything to do with home use? You are trying to recommend running a puny 8" tall center speaker with (2) 6.5-inch woofers the same as a commercial cinema front speaker? BTW, the Dolby commercial spec is that the screen speakers are -3 dB at 80 Hz.

Everything is relative as a theater is extremely large vs my 3000 cu ft' room. So a puny 8" tall speaker as you put it that can deliver 42hz-25kHz with great sensitivity and power handling should be just fine.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Your posts don't seem to be asking for a better speaker. What are your current fronts?

My fronts will be chosen based on which Center is chosen. As the Center is the most important speaker for home theater use. So for the C100 id be choosing the F200 towers to go with them as im replacing my entire front soundstage. But my focus is the Center cause too many Brands have great towers and really bad Centers. So im turning it around and looking for the Center 1st.

 

[rynberg]

My fronts will be chosen based on which Center is chosen. As the Center is the most important speaker for home theater use. So for the C100 id be choosing the F200 towers to go with them as im replacing my entire front soundstage. But my focus is the Center cause too many Brand have great towers and really bad Centers. So im turning it around and looking for the Center 1st.

I don't disagree with that philosophy at all, it's just the ML stuff is just poorly engineered and a waste of money. You mentioned the Kef R6 sounded "hollow", I mean that's an anecdotal finding based on the setup in a store (Best Buy?)...it is a dramatically better performing speaker objectively.

In your general price range, it's very hard to beat the Kef R Meta series, as long as you prefer narrower but deeper and more precise soundstage to wider soundstage. All the R Meta speakers have excellent engineering and will take well to EQ if you don't prefer a neutral presentation. If you DO prefer a wider soundstage, I would honestly recommend buying used Revel Performa3 or finding remaining NIB stock from dealers (if there is any remaining) or going with Ascend Acoustics revised Sierra models. I personally prefer wide soundstage to precise; I would personally go with Ascend Acoustics Sierra V2 if I had to buy new speakers right now (Revel will be updating their Performa and Concerta series, but timing of new releases is unknown at the moment.)

Honestly, the market is very poor at this moment for good center channel speakers in the horizontal format. However, this is much less of an issue if you have a narrower listening position. A 3-seat couch at 9-10' is within the range of performance even with an MTM.

 

[Heatransfer]

I literally asked for another center thats in its price range and can compete. Lets say up to $2k. Prove me wrong i dont give a crap, i simply want the best i can possibly afford and right now it's the C100 from everything i've seen so far. Show me what you would choose for that budget...

I'll reframe your request.

Given the budget ('compromise a') and the precedence that you place on paper specification bass extension ('compromise b'), you're willing to trade off vocal clarity ('compromise c').

If you're okay with those compromises, perhaps you've found your product. Maybe you're not bothered by the possibility of comb filtering. That's okay, but it is possible within the vocal range frequencies.

To be fair, I too, for a long time, had a MTM center channel. It had some design choices that were made to reduce the comb filtering and, to be fair, I wasn't too bothered in my application of a setup in a multi purpose living room. However, I usually sat at or near the sweet spot on a couch 8 ft away).

However, comb filtering was always on my mind, and it probably did have an effect during the rare times I sat off axis... So when I upgraded I did purchase a 3way model.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

I don't disagree with that philosophy at all, it's just the ML stuff is just poorly engineered and a waste of money. You mentioned the Kef R6 sounded "hollow", I mean that's an anecdotal finding based on the setup in a store (Best Buy?)...it is a dramatically better performing speaker objectively.

In your general price range, it's very hard to beat the Kef R Meta series, as long as you prefer narrower but deeper and more precise soundstage to wider soundstage. All the R Meta speakers have excellent engineering and will take well to EQ if you don't prefer a neutral presentation. If you DO prefer a wider soundstage, I would honestly recommend buying used Revel Performa3 or finding remaining NIB stock from dealers (if there is any remaining) or going with Ascend Acoustics revised Sierra models. I personally prefer wide soundstage to precise; I would personally go with Ascend Acoustics Sierra V2 if I had to buy new speakers right now (Revel will be updating their Performa and Concerta series, but timing of new releases is unknown at the moment.)

Honestly, the market is very poor at this moment for good center channel speakers in the horizontal format. However, this is much less of an issue if you have a narrower listening position. A 3-seat couch at 9-10' is within the range of performance even with an MTM.

I listened to the Kef R11 towers & R6 center. I liked the towers they were very similar to the ML F200s but the center was a hollow sounding disappointment. One scene that really stood out to me was with Tom Cruise and we all know how he is suppose to sound. So when i heard his voice sound like it was down the hall, at first i thought it may have been just that scene..but then i heard the B&W 700 series center & ML C100 and they both sounded correct. So KEF is out for me. As for your other reccomendations ill have to look into them further and see if their in the Budget and would work.

As for seating off axis performance is of high priority for my Center, as i have an L-shaped couch on one side and another single on the other. I sit about 12ft away from my TV.

 

[Sancus]

To be clear lobing happens when two speakers playing the same frequency collide abd cancel eachother out. So if one driver in a pair has a X-over at 1300hz then that means your left with only 1 driver producing up to 2500hz.

Sorry but this is wrong. You are correct that lobing occurs when two drivers are playing the same frequency, if those drivers are separated by a physical distance more than 1/4 wavelength. In any crossover between two drivers, each is playing the same frequency across some portion of the range, because crossovers are not brick walls(one driver does not immediately cut over to the other frequency, it's gradual on both sides).

In a 2-way bookshelf, there are only two drives, but lobing still occurs. It matters less because of the orientation, the lobing occurs in the vertical direction. In an MTM center, there are 3 drivers(two woofers, one tweeter). If it is 2-way, then *three* drivers are playing the same frequency, and the lobing is also in the horizontal direction which we hear better than vertical. That's why it's so bad.

In this 2.5-way, there are *still* two drivers playing the same frequency for each range. It's one woofer + one tweeter in each case. This may reduce the severity of lobing vs all three playing at one frequency, but it will also extend it over a larger frequency range, since now you will have lobes caused by both combinations of drivers at different frequency ranges.

literally asked for another center thats in its price range and can compete. Lets say up to $2k.

There are plenty of good 3-way centers $2K and below, like the Kef R6 Meta, Kef R2 Meta, and Kef Q6 Meta(only $800) in order of descending price. Ascend makes the Sierra Horizon with dome tweeter for $1400 and ribbon for $1700(for which they publish real measurements from an NFS). Elac has the UC52 for $750.

These are just ones that I remember offhand, I'm sure there are many others. Plus, basically any coaxial bookshelf like the Kef R3 Meta can be placed on its side to make an excellent center.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

I'll reframe your request.

Given the budget ('compromise a') and the precedence that you place on paper specification bass extension ('compromise b'), you're willing to trade off vocal clarity ('compromise c').

If you're okay with those compromises, perhaps you've found your product. Maybe you're not bothered by the possibility of comb filtering. That's okay, but it is possible within the vocal range frequencies.

To be fair, I too, for a long time, had a MTM center channel. It had some design choices that were made to reduce the comb filtering and, to be fair, I wasn't too bothered in my application of a setup in a multi purpose living room. However, I usually sat at or near the sweet spot on a couch 8 ft away).

However, comb filtering was always on my mind, and it probably did have an effect during the rare times I sat off axis... So when I upgraded I did purchase a 3way model.

What Center are you using as your reference in your house for your budget?

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Sorry but this is wrong. You are correct that lobing occurs when two drivers are playing the same frequency, if those drivers are separated by a physical distance more than 1/4 wavelength. In any crossover between two drivers, each is playing the same frequency across some portion of the range, because crossovers are not brick walls(one driver does not immediately cut over to the other frequency, it's gradual on both sides).

In a 2-way bookshelf, there are only two drives, but lobing still occurs. It matters less because of the orientation, the lobing occurs in the vertical direction. In an MTM center, there are 3 drivers(two woofers, one tweeter). If it is 2-way, then *three* drivers are playing the same frequency, and the lobing is also in the horizontal direction which we hear better than vertical. That's why it's so bad.

In this 2.5-way, there are *still* two drivers playing the same frequency for each range. It's one woofer + one tweeter in each case. This may reduce the severity of lobing vs all three playing at one frequency, but it will also extend it over a larger frequency range, since now you will have lobes caused by both combinations of drivers at different frequency ranges.


There are plenty of good 3-way centers $2K and below, like the Kef R6 Meta, Kef R2 Meta, and Kef Q6 Meta(only $800) in order of descending price. Ascend makes the Sierra Horizon with dome tweeter for $1400 and ribbon for $1700(for which they publish real measurements from an NFS). Elac has the UC52 for $750.

These are just ones that I remember offhand, I'm sure there are many others. Plus, basically any coaxial bookshelf like the Kef R3 Meta can be placed on its side to make an excellent center.

I was waiting for someone to point out that crossovers aren't brick walls lol. But in the real world they might as well be as the levels that they dissipate and fall off will be masked and minimize in any real audible way quickly. Theirs a big difference between ears and a microphone, as im sure your aware every 6dB is a perceived doubling in sound. On a freq graph that may not look as huge, but in reality it is.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Sorry but this is wrong. You are correct that lobing occurs when two drivers are playing the same frequency, if those drivers are separated by a physical distance more than 1/4 wavelength. In any crossover between two drivers, each is playing the same frequency across some portion of the range, because crossovers are not brick walls(one driver does not immediately cut over to the other frequency, it's gradual on both sides).

In a 2-way bookshelf, there are only two drives, but lobing still occurs. It matters less because of the orientation, the lobing occurs in the vertical direction. In an MTM center, there are 3 drivers(two woofers, one tweeter). If it is 2-way, then *three* drivers are playing the same frequency, and the lobing is also in the horizontal direction which we hear better than vertical. That's why it's so bad.

In this 2.5-way, there are *still* two drivers playing the same frequency for each range. It's one woofer + one tweeter in each case. This may reduce the severity of lobing vs all three playing at one frequency, but it will also extend it over a larger frequency range, since now you will have lobes caused by both combinations of drivers at different frequency ranges.


There are plenty of good 3-way centers $2K and below, like the Kef R6 Meta, Kef R2 Meta, and Kef Q6 Meta(only $800) in order of descending price. Ascend makes the Sierra Horizon with dome tweeter for $1400 and ribbon for $1700(for which they publish real measurements from an NFS). Elac has the UC52 for $750.

These are just ones that I remember offhand, I'm sure there are many others. Plus, basically any coaxial bookshelf like the Kef R3 Meta can be placed on its side to make an excellent center.

I havent looked into the Sierra Horizon...ill check them out. Thnx for the tip.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

What Center are you using as your reference in your house for your budget?

Infinity 3 way RC263 was good speaker. Revel Performa 2 way C205 is much, much better. Too much focus on horizontal dispersion. I don't listen at 45 degree angle. I don't have a crowd that listens on the edge. If I did, they wouldn't notice.

 

[GXAlan]

This does not seem to be a solution as it may only make the lobing asymmetrical. Aside from M-L literature, is there a link to a study or paper?

Meyer Sound used to say the same thing about controlling directivity this way

And

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Infinity 3 way RC263 was good speaker. Revel Performa 2 way C205 is much, much better. Too much focus on horizontal dispersion. I don't listen at 45 degree angle. I don't have a crowd that listens on the edge. If I did, they wouldn't notice.

Erins audio corner stresses why its important for speakers off axis performance even if you dont listen at that angle you still have wall reflections back to your seated posistion.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Meyer Sound used to say the same thing about controlling directivity this way
View attachment 426877

And

View attachment 426878

Very interesting find...thnx! Now we just need to find measurements to see this in action!

 

[GXAlan]

The only reason THX likes to use 80hz for home theater crossovers is because most cant handle anything close to full range. Do you think theaters crossover at 80hz on their Centers...i dont think so. So the closer i can get to full range within my budget I will go for thats my preference.

I agree. To be fair, there was also a lot of thought in the slope.

Amped America - HomeTheaterHifi.com

Amped America is a small company based in New Jersey, United States, and owned by designer Boris Meltsner.

hometheaterhifi.com

I agree that you do benefit from going full range, because there is content encoded below 80 Hz in those channels and simply applying a crossover in the absence of something like MSO or Dirac Live Bass Control, it can be tricky.

This is a much better discussion of why bass management is hard in real practice…

 

[GXAlan]

Very interesting find...thnx! Now we just need to find measurements to see this in action!

Meyer has anechoic data and software to show you this information for free.

MAPP 3D is free. I can run some simulations Sat or Sunday maybe. Everything they put out measures well, so there has to be some truth to this.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I agree. To be fair, there was also a lot of thought in the slope.

Amped America - HomeTheaterHifi.com

Amped America is a small company based in New Jersey, United States, and owned by designer Boris Meltsner.

hometheaterhifi.com

I agree that you do benefit from going full range, because there is content encoded below 80 Hz in those channels and simply applying a crossover in the absence of something like MSO or Dirac Live Bass Control, it can be tricky.

This is a much better discussion of why bass management is hard in real practice…

Oh come on. A full range center. Mount TV on a 9 ft ceiling and place a Revel F208 as center. Look weird in a living room. Forget the neck pain, unless you are a crane.

 

[GXAlan]

Oh come on. A full range center. Mount TV on a 9 ft ceiling and place a Revel F208 as center. Look weird in a living room. Forget the neck pain, unless you are a crane.

Doesn’t need to be full range, just better than 80 Hz.

Meyer Sound Amie Monitor Review

This is a review, listening test and detailed measurements of the Meyer Sound Amie Studio (active) monitor speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $4,080 each (sold in pairs?). The deep, horn like waveguide sets the speaker apart from its competitors. The large throat of the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This is what Skywalker Sound uses for their mixing rooms. Goes down to 42 Hz. 6.5” woofer.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

I agree. To be fair, there was also a lot of thought in the slope.

Amped America - HomeTheaterHifi.com

Amped America is a small company based in New Jersey, United States, and owned by designer Boris Meltsner.

hometheaterhifi.com

I agree that you do benefit from going full range, because there is content encoded below 80 Hz in those channels and simply applying a crossover in the absence of something like MSO or Dirac Live Bass Control, it can be tricky.

This is a much better discussion of why bass management is hard in real practice…

I have Dirac Live ...but i will check this out, thnx.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Meyer has anechoic data and software to show you this information for free.

MAPP 3D is free. I can run some simulations Sat or Sunday maybe. Everything they put out measures well, so there has to be some truth to this.

Thanks id very much like to see this comb filtering in action.