With that placement I can easily understand going without. I do generally prefer a 3-way for center channel duties, tho. You might like this article and subsequent forum discussion https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-designs-1
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Is there an ongoing discussion of phantom centers?
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Due to comb filtering issues and possibly other factors it seems a large percentage of experts seem to recommend a center speaker. However, not much is talked about on the preference(subjective) on how comb filtering with its delayed signal from one side might support the intelligibility of dialogue or any music. It might even not be the comb filtering and rather the larger soundstage that cues the individual to prefer the phantom centre. A larger sound stage is often preferred over narrower type directivity even if the center speaker is a wide directivity it can't compete with a phantom center's soundstage. The point is we deem comb filtering as bad and I am not suggesting that its good, all I am saying is perhaps when we compare a single source style speaker often upmixed to PL2 Movie sometimes without L/R supporting sounds/dialouge(due to the recording) then the phantom center fairs better to the ear on immediate listening. However for me those reflections or shall we say comb filtering(from phantom centre) at least for dialogue provide a touch of listening fatigue. Yes, we might be disregarding how important reflections are for soundstage and depth but maybe for the centre speaker that's not what we want but is just preffered upon initial listening.
Taking all this in, I have swayed the complete other way and now find that the phantom center even though quite enticing upon initial listening that it cannot beat a proper center speaker especially for dialogue. It takes time to get used sound coming from that source directly in front of you but the clarity of the dialogue is umatched at least in my amatuer opinion. Why? Because if the recorded material allows for the upmix to provide its supporting reflective sounds from L/R, the experts obviously have figured this out better than us, the subtle reinforcment of the sounds from L/R are what the brain wants to hear and we get it perfectly from upmixing. With a phantom centre the comb filtering provides us with the larger sound stage tricking us to think that the sound is so much better yes it is if the marker for better sound is only soundstage but there are many markers to qualify good sound especially for dialogue which is what the center speaker is often used for.
Disclaimer, I am an amatuer so if there are holes in my observation take it easy, this is just an opinion that might have some truths. At least there is research that does support the idea that some types of reflections do support dialouge and voice inteliggibility and we also know that horizontal reflection are preffered from Toole.
Taking all this in, I have swayed the complete other way and now find that the phantom center even though quite enticing upon initial listening that it cannot beat a proper center speaker especially for dialogue. It takes time to get used sound coming from that source directly in front of you but the clarity of the dialogue is umatched at least in my amatuer opinion. Why? Because if the recorded material allows for the upmix to provide its supporting reflective sounds from L/R, the experts obviously have figured this out better than us, the subtle reinforcment of the sounds from L/R are what the brain wants to hear and we get it perfectly from upmixing. With a phantom centre the comb filtering provides us with the larger sound stage tricking us to think that the sound is so much better yes it is if the marker for better sound is only soundstage but there are many markers to qualify good sound especially for dialogue which is what the center speaker is often used for.
Disclaimer, I am an amatuer so if there are holes in my observation take it easy, this is just an opinion that might have some truths. At least there is research that does support the idea that some types of reflections do support dialouge and voice inteliggibility and we also know that horizontal reflection are preffered from Toole.
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2Sunny
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I think I agree with your sentiment. I have gone back and forth from phantom center to normal center several times now, and for my situation one thing is clear. For movies with no music or singing the normal center is fine; it's only when the movies have sound tracks with lots of music where the difference is quite noticeable for me.
Not sure I am following this one. What is the spatial quality degradation you are refering to?
@DVDdoug kindly posted the "prevailing" theory behind need for a dedicated center which I was too lazy to dig out. Aligns with my experience completely in multiple setups. I actually love the sound of my current towers more than my center, but the towers don't have a matching center in production. But still, would never even think of going phantom.
Ime soundstage depth, particularly in the middle of the soundstage, is reduced with a center channel speaker, as compared with a well set-up pair of speakers in phantom center mode. This was described earlier in the post you quoted.
I also described why I don't think that is the case
. Your opinion might count a bit more than mine, but in this particular matter, IMO it is not even close to correct based on both theory and my experience.
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The 1.8 kHz dip is really not compensated for since it is a comb filter cancellation. Even if it would be compensated it would be heard as excess energy in the 2 kHz range using headphones or when using a center channel. The best way to compensate for this flaw IMO is to make sure that off-axis response of the speakers has sufficient energy around 2 kHz and that on-axis has slight dip 3-4 kHz (and 7-8 kHz).
This makes speakers sound quite smooth and ”disappears”. Some people might not like it though, but I do.
This flaw in stereo reproduction has been discussed in many other threads though.
I don't undersand a word of what your are saying. So would be helpful to elaborate. This is HT discussion and not sure where are you coming from with your universal suggestions that include "comb filter cancelations". There is no such thing in properly set up HT system.
I also described why I don't think that is the case
Well it's definitely not a contest about whose opinion counts more! You and I have had different experiences which result in different conclusions.
Fair enough. I understand that the prevailing wisdom says a center channel is better than phantom center mode, and that most people's experience supports that. In my opinion it depends on the specifics as to which approach gives the best results.
If you would like, I can describe the specifics of a set-up wherein phantom center mode works well for listeners to either side of the main listening position. Not to dispute your preference for using a center channel (which imo in many cases is clearly the best solution) but to describe something, based on psychoacoustic theory, which most people are not aware of.
I believe it is regarding the phantom center cancellation dip (which is a comb filtering effect), as the title of this thread is about the phantom center. For more info, you can refer to the section on "The Phantom Center Channel Superiority Myth" in this Audioholics article by Dr Toole.
Room Reflections & Human Adaptation for Small Room Acoustics
Dealing with acoustics in small rooms is no trivial matter. This article focuses on how to treat early reflections based on listening habits, your loudspeaker choice. Absorb, diffuse, reflect; decide.
www.audioholics.com
I give up guys - you can run it up to the ground. I no circumstances and even with 2025 ground-braking research and results would I change my mind. Center all the way and anything else is inferior solution. Feel free to use your speakers as you see fit - it is your prerogative.
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I don't think NTK, at least, was arguing otherwise. And current research, as demonstrated in his link to Toole's article, indicates objective issues with the "phantom center" that are remedied with a dedicated center channel AFAIK.
It is a problem in phantom centers. And if it would be compensated for in a stereo mix, it is a problem for center speakers. Pure HT centers for movies or multichannel recordings is a different story. That said, TV sets give some problems where centers are either below or above the screen. I’ve read though that having one below and above cause center to be placed in the middle of the TV screen. Another type of phantom center.
I've just got a 2 channel system, but phantom centre is totally there & perfectly fine with both music and movies as long as you're sitting in the right place (arranged in an equilateral triangle with listening position). Yeah, soundstage is very smooth inasmuch as the speakers disappear and you're left with a clean spatial canvas in front of you on which the music (& movies) is painted. I think it helps to have speakers with good directivity to aid in this phantom centre effect, which you would have with your Revel's.So, over the last month or so I have made many many changes to my home theater based on all that I am learning, and happily I'm learning more every day. One of my latest points of interest came from a new purchase. I recently upgraded my speakers from a Klipsch Reference Premiere bundle to a mostly Revel setup and the difference was quite dramatic. As part of that upgrade I wanted to improve the center channel but I do have a severe limitation as I have an entertainment center that long term I will get rid of but for now must remain and the spot for a center is 22x11x8 inches so I self limited my speaker search and there really was only one speaker that fit: Ascend Acoustics Duo V2 LCR. I purchased, installed, and then watched several movies with said speaker in place.
What I found was that movies with lots of singing sounded a bit flat to me especially when compared to how good music sounds the my new Revel Performa F226Be towers. I'm not so sure what word to use but flat to me means no real sound stage effect. Anyways, as a result I began to search for solutions and immediately stumbled upon the idea of using a phantom center. Now I should preface my comment by saying that I have zero concern about anyone watching a movie not at the MLP as 99% of my movie watching is just me. In any case here's my point of this thread or my question as to whether or not a discussion of this topic is already underway which my guess is yes - I just couldn't find it . . . sorry
Point is: I turned off my center channel speaker and ran Auto Calibration on my Sony STR AZ7000ES in 4.1 mode and personally I find the difference to be night and day with the phantom center superbly placed and the overall sound vastly improved - at least at the MLP.
What have others experienced that have tried this? Are there center channel speakers that are equal to premium L&R channel speakers or is the only real answer to buy a high quality bookshelf speaker?
I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. AFAICT, in this thread at least Trdat, Thomas_A, DVDdoug, and I, (and probably kyuu too) are of the same opinion with you that a real center channel is better than a phantom center.
You see, I don't watch movies so I understand how if the movie has music or something you want to hear in stereo than it seems that the L/R support in the upmixing is not as good as the stereo itself without a center and upmix.. So it depends whats important for the person dialogue, the dynamic sounds in the movie, soundtrack etc....
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Just get a full-range center speaker and enjoy the full-range signal in the center channel! If you've not had a capable center speaker, you may not realize how much deep bass(not LFE) is in the center channel, especially in action movies. After all, the center channel in movies is a discrete channel with its own sounds, and it carries more than just dialog. Why would you want to shuffle that off to the front L/R speakers?
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I would like to add just so people comprehend my experience correctly is that I do not have a dedicated standard center speaker. I have DIY'ed a center speaker emulating to a certain degree, my left and right. So its essentially a L/R speaker set for the center. It works because its one of those monitors on the side fits right under my TV. The moral of the story might be here, that your center speaker might have to be as good as your L/R or in general just a solid speaker all around.
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