Is there an ongoing discussion of phantom centers?

[2Sunny]

So, over the last month or so I have made many many changes to my home theater based on all that I am learning, and happily I'm learning more every day. One of my latest points of interest came from a new purchase. I recently upgraded my speakers from a Klipsch Reference Premiere bundle to a mostly Revel setup and the difference was quite dramatic. As part of that upgrade I wanted to improve the center channel but I do have a severe limitation as I have an entertainment center that long term I will get rid of but for now must remain and the spot for a center is 22x11x8 inches so I self limited my speaker search and there really was only one speaker that fit: Ascend Acoustics Duo V2 LCR. I purchased, installed, and then watched several movies with said speaker in place.

What I found was that movies with lots of singing sounded a bit flat to me especially when compared to how good music sounds the my new Revel Performa F226Be towers. I'm not so sure what word to use but flat to me means no real sound stage effect. Anyways, as a result I began to search for solutions and immediately stumbled upon the idea of using a phantom center. Now I should preface my comment by saying that I have zero concern about anyone watching a movie not at the MLP as 99% of my movie watching is just me. In any case here's my point of this thread or my question as to whether or not a discussion of this topic is already underway which my guess is yes - I just couldn't find it . . . sorry

Point is: I turned off my center channel speaker and ran Auto Calibration on my Sony STR AZ7000ES in 4.1 mode and personally I find the difference to be night and day with the phantom center superbly placed and the overall sound vastly improved - at least at the MLP.

What have others experienced that have tried this? Are there center channel speakers that are equal to premium L&R channel speakers or is the only real answer to buy a high quality bookshelf speaker?

 

[ppataki]

So, over the last month or so I have made many many changes to my home theater based on all that I am learning, and happily I'm learning more every day. One of my latest points of interest came from a new purchase. I recently upgraded my speakers from a Klipsch Reference Premiere bundle to a mostly Revel setup and the difference was quite dramatic. As part of that upgrade I wanted to improve the center channel but I do have a severe limitation as I have an entertainment center that long term I will get rid of but for now must remain and the spot for a center is 22x11x8 inches so I self limited my speaker search and there really was only one speaker that fit: Ascend Acoustics Duo V2 LCR. I purchased, installed, and then watched several movies with said speaker in place.

What I found was that movies with lots of singing sounded a bit flat to me especially when compared to how good music sounds the my new Revel Performa F226Be towers. I'm not so sure what word to use but flat to me means no real sound stage effect. Anyways, as a result I began to search for solutions and immediately stumbled upon the idea of using a phantom center. Now I should preface my comment by saying that I have zero concern about anyone watching a movie not at the MLP as 99% of my movie watching is just me. In any case here's my point of this thread or my question as to whether or not a discussion of this topic is already underway which my guess is yes - I just couldn't find it . . . sorry

Point is: I turned off my center channel speaker and ran Auto Calibration on my Sony STR AZ7000ES in 4.1 mode and personally I find the difference to be night and day with the phantom center superbly placed and the overall sound vastly improved - at least at the MLP.

What have others experienced that have tried this? Are there center channel speakers that are equal to premium L&R channel speakers or is the only real answer to buy a high quality bookshelf speaker?

I have been watching movies on my main system in 4.2 for many many years now, without a center speaker
Phantom center is as great for movies as for music but as you mentioned, in the MLP only
If you are fine with MLP optimization only, then phantom center just works fine

 

[2Sunny]

I have been watching movies on my main system in 4.2 for many many years now, without a center speaker
Phantom center is as great for movies as for music but as you mentioned, in the MLP only
If you are fine with MLP optimization only, then phantom center just works fine

Szervusz from the U.S. I was actually born Csizmadia Jozsef and still have lots of family in Budapest

 

[ppataki]

Szervusz from the U.S. I was actually born Csizmadia Jozsef and still have lots of family in Budapest

Cool!
The world is indeed small

 

[Oddball]

So, over the last month or so I have made many many changes to my home theater based on all that I am learning, and happily I'm learning more every day. One of my latest points of interest came from a new purchase. I recently upgraded my speakers from a Klipsch Reference Premiere bundle to a mostly Revel setup and the difference was quite dramatic. As part of that upgrade I wanted to improve the center channel but I do have a severe limitation as I have an entertainment center that long term I will get rid of but for now must remain and the spot for a center is 22x11x8 inches so I self limited my speaker search and there really was only one speaker that fit: Ascend Acoustics Duo V2 LCR. I purchased, installed, and then watched several movies with said speaker in place.

What I found was that movies with lots of singing sounded a bit flat to me especially when compared to how good music sounds the my new Revel Performa F226Be towers. I'm not so sure what word to use but flat to me means no real sound stage effect. Anyways, as a result I began to search for solutions and immediately stumbled upon the idea of using a phantom center. Now I should preface my comment by saying that I have zero concern about anyone watching a movie not at the MLP as 99% of my movie watching is just me. In any case here's my point of this thread or my question as to whether or not a discussion of this topic is already underway which my guess is yes - I just couldn't find it . . . sorry

Point is: I turned off my center channel speaker and ran Auto Calibration on my Sony STR AZ7000ES in 4.1 mode and personally I find the difference to be night and day with the phantom center superbly placed and the overall sound vastly improved - at least at the MLP.

What have others experienced that have tried this? Are there center channel speakers that are equal to premium L&R channel speakers or is the only real answer to buy a high quality bookshelf speaker?

I personally don't find phantom center as a perfect solution, but that's just me. Many that are concerned with MLP only love it.

There is a center that is a match made in haven for your 226 towers. It is Revel 426 center, but it is pretty large speaker. Best horizontal center I had and it was bought when I upgraded my towers to keep up with them, which it does very well. They occasionally go on sale for 50% off and that is the time to buy them.

Review of your towers and 426 center is below. James Larson is a serious guy and this review hints emotions, so that definitively counts for something.

Revel PerformaBe F226Be Tower & C426Be Center Loudspeakers Review

We reviewed the Revel Performa F226Be, a three-way floor-standing speaker, and the C426Be, a monster three-way center speaker using four 6.5" bass drivers to see if they live up to the brand reputation.

www.audioholics.com

 

[DVDdoug]

Personally, I never get a pin-point center illusion. It's always somewhat vague & wide (always... not just with my main home system).

And yes, it works best only for listeners sitting centered between the speakers.

Also because of the dynamics of most movies, the effects are often too-loud and/or the dialog too-quiet and with a center channel you can turn-up center dialog separately.

Here are some quotes from Floyd Toole's book:

In movies and television, the center channel does most of the work... The center channel is arguably the most important loudspeaker in a multi-channel system.

Conventional two-channel stereo cannot produce a center image that sounds the same as that from a discrete center channel, even if it is stable and well defined.

To put the next two comments into context, when listening to regular stereo, the space between your ears (the distance-difference between the speakers) and the interference-cancellation between the soundwaves creates a dip at around 2kHz in the phantom center. It's not a problem with regular stereo because the mixing engineer hears the same thing and naturally compensates for it.

The phantom center image is spatially and timbrally flawed, even to the point of affecting speech intelligibility, especially if the direct sound is dominate.

Listeners... not only heard the (2kHz dip in the phantom center) but... it had a significant negative effect on speech intelligibility.

 

[MarcT]

Running phantom center does have its advantages if you have really nice and capable front L/R speakers. But the center channel is a discrete full range channel, so I like to give it a dedicated speaker.

 

[2Sunny]

I personally don't find phantom center as a perfect solution, but that's just me. Many that are concerned with MLP only love it.

There is a center that is a match made in haven for your 226 towers. It is Revel 426 center, but it is pretty large speaker. Best horizontal center I had and it was bought when I upgraded my towers to keep up with them, which it does very well. They occasionally go on sale for 50% off and that is the time to buy them.

Review of your towers and 426 center is below. James Larson is a serious guy and this review hints emotions, so that definitively counts for something.

Revel PerformaBe F226Be Tower & C426Be Center Loudspeakers Review

We reviewed the Revel Performa F226Be, a three-way floor-standing speaker, and the C426Be, a monster three-way center speaker using four 6.5" bass drivers to see if they live up to the brand reputation.

www.audioholics.com

I definitely would prefer to have a center channel speaker, but for my system as is the phantom center does a better job than the Ascend Acoustic Duo, which I honestly found quite surprising hence my bringing up this discussion, BUT in the future I fully plan on one day getting my wife to buy off on a larger TV and then ditch the entertainment center THEN I could try the Revel 426 and I'm sure THAT would be better. So here's to a future with a center speaker!!

 

[kyuu]

I think the location of your center channel is much (if not all) of the problem: above the TV stuck in a little cubby. Also while the Ascend is a great little speaker, I don't think it can quite keep up with those Revels.

 

[krabapple]

To put the next two comments into context, when listening to regular stereo, the space between your ears (the distance-difference between the speakers) and the interference-cancellation between the soundwaves creates a dip at around 2kHz in the phantom center. It's not a problem with regular stereo because the mixing engineer hears the same thing and naturally compensates for it.

I of course accept those facts (iirc JJ has made the same point) and I own a C speaker identical to L and R, but I'm now making the tradeoff of using a phantom C because I very much like my TV screen to be centered at eye level. (I've experimented with mounting the C low and aiming it up at the MLP, but it's...a bit weird, for surround music) .

Ideally, a remote controlled robot speaker lifter would do the trick. Is that so much to ask?

 

[Duke]

I turned off my center channel speaker... and personally I find the difference to be night and day with the phantom center superbly placed and the overall sound vastly improved - at least at the MLP.

What have others experienced that have tried this?

YES!!! I have found this to be the case and so have customers of mine who have tried it. Both sound quality and spatial quality are improved in phantom center mode relative to using a purpose-built center-channel speaker.

99% of my movie watching is just me... Are there center channel speakers that are equal to premium L&R channel speakers or is the only real answer to buy a high quality bookshelf speaker?

Before trying to answer your question I'd like to relate the following anecdote, which shaped my opinion:

I have a colleague who was using a trinaural system for music and home theater. He has a drop-down screen so his center-channel speaker was behind the screen, and it was identical to his left and right speakers. So this is about as ideal a configuration as you can get for a system with a dedicated center channel.

One day he tried his system in phantom center mode, and found that the spatial quality was much improved: The depth of the soundstage was much more convincing with just two speakers in phantom center mode; with the center channel active, the soundstage depth was pretty much constrained to no deeper than the distance to the center channel speaker (a few feet behind the screen). Depth of soundstage isn't really an issue for movies, but it is nice to have for videos of music performances, as it supports the illusion of a live performance.

Those particular speakers were relatively conventional (European cones-n-domes), so for off-centerline viewers the dialogue was pulled towards the near speaker, which was distracting. So this was not yet a good solution for multiple people in multiple locations.

He is now using speakers designed for time/intensity trading (which I can describe if you'd like), so he has no more issue with the dialogue moving towards the near speaker for off-centerline viewers in phantom center mode. This approach works well as long as none of the viewers have a significant hearing imbalance, but ime it requires speakers with a particular and rather unusual set of characteristics.

So finally circling back to your question ("Are there center channel speakers that are equal to premium L&R channel speakers or is the only real answer to buy a high quality bookshelf speaker?"), imo there is likely to be a spatial quality degradation with the use of a dedicated center channel, even if the center channel speaker is identical to the left and right speakers and is located at the ideal height.

So if I was in your position and only needed a center-channel speaker 1% of the time and wanted to keep my main speakers, I'd concentrate on a center-channel speaker that gives good coverage for off-centerline locations, and I'd place less priority on the sound quality aspect.

Are you a pilot?

 

[MarcT]

Well, with phantom mode, all the front stage sound is coming from an angle and more towards the sides of your ears, while, with a center speaker, its sound is coming straight towards your head and parallel to your ear lobes.

I guess because of age, I can hear a sound much better if I turn my head such that the sound is coming more towards the side of my ear. Using my center speaker, I find that I really have to bump it up several dB to hear and understand dialog, while if I go phantom, I can hear the dialog better at a lower volume. But I still like having the center channel because it is full range and a discrete channel with lots of deep bass in a good number of movies.

 

[NTK]

How much a center channel helps depends heavily on the source material. Take for example the music review from this thread:

Elton John and Brandi Carlile – Who Believes In Angels? – When Mixing and Mastering Make All the Difference, good or bad? Stereo vs Atmos.

Hello, Who Believes In Angels? is a collaborative album by Elton John and Brandi Carlile, written and recorded in 20 days. Who Believes In Angels? is available in CD, vinyl, stereo and Dolby Atmos streaming formats, as well as a special limited edition Blu-ray from SDE, including stereo, 5.1...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Here are the relative levels of the channels. Look at the differences in the RMS levels of L&R versus C. From this picture you would be thinking there wasn't a featured artist performing at the center of the stage.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I have a colleague who was using a trinaural system for music and home theater. He has a drop-down screen so his center-channel speaker was behind the screen, and it was identical to his left and right speakers. So this is about as ideal a configuration as you can get for a system with a dedicated center channel.

Only if you insist on having a video screen.

 

[Duke]

Only if you insist on having a video screen.

Yeah, I prefer my music straight, eyes closed in a darkened room, no video distractions. But that's asking a bit much of movie-watchers.

 

[2Sunny]

. . .

Are you a pilot?

Retired. Here's me landing in Poland with 364 armed Army troops in back

 

[MarcT]

Retired. Here's me landing in Poland with 364 armed Army troops in back

Nice, you set her down all solid and military style!

 

[Duke]

Retired. Here's me landing in Poland with 364 armed Army troops in back

WOW.

 

[MattHooper]

When I first got into Home Theatre back in 2001 I bought a 42 inch Panasonic plasma screen, and I used Spendor s3/5 speakers (very small stand, mounted speakers) on either side of the screen, no centre channel, but I added some surrounds for when we were watching DVDs.

For that particular set up, it was one of the best decisions I made. Those little Spendors sounded incredibly natural with voices and they imaged like mad, just disappeared, so that even off axis the sound didn’t seem to be coming from the speakers. For most viewing positions, the sound simply mapped onto the image better than any other set up I’ve ever seen. No centre channel has ever matched it.
I only replaced the Spendors in that set up a few years ago because I wanted them more available to throw into my 2 channel system now and again.

I replace them with another pair of cheaper small speakers. They don’t do quite as well as the Spendors, but they still do a very good job of the sound mapping onto the screen.

On the other hand, in my home theatre room I have a very large wide projection screen which requires a large spread between the left centre right channels. And with a phantom center there, at least with my Home Theatre speakers, doesn’t work as well especially of course, for off-center viewing. Besides, I really like the sound of my centre channel too.

That said, sometimes I have switched over to just my 2 channel speakers (which are pulled more out towards the listening position) to watch some concert footage on my big screen, and from anywhere near the sweet spot, the pure disappearing act from the loudspeakers, vast soundstage and dimensional imaging, really makes for an amazing experience while watching the performers. It feels very live.

 

[mj30250]

If you're happy with the phantom center effect and there aren't any concerns for off-axis listeners then there's not much reason to fret over it until you can modify the space to accommodate something much larger.

If you do care to try again, make sure the front baffle of the center is clear of the entertainment center by at least an inch, if not more. If you had the Duo center tucked back into that little cubby, that's going to create issues. You will likely want the speaker tilted up towards your ears as well, particularly if you have the ribbon version of the Duo. You will also need to ensure that you are properly adjusting the trim levels of the center to bring its output in line with the Revel speakers, especially as the Revels are significantly more sensitive. You may even find it helpful to bump it up by a further 2-3dBs and to set a higher crossover (start at 100Hz), which will take some strain off of the 4.5" woofers.

And as was already mentioned, as good as the Duo V2 is for its diminutive size, at higher volumes it's simply going to be at a disadvantage against the much larger F226Bes.