Bi-amp front speakers with receiver (internal) and external integrated amp?

[JorisCeoen]

I have the following amps:

- Yamaha RX-A4A (receiver)
- Yamaha A-S1100 (integrated)

Currently, the fronts (KEF R11’s) are powered solely by the integrated. It’s connected to the pre-out from the receiver. The receiver only powers the surrounds and center (KEF R3’s and R2C).

Can I bi-amp the fronts by separating low/high frequency with respectively the integrated for lows and receiver for highs?

If so, is it useful, and if yes how do I do this?
Do I simply remove the link knobs on the speakers and attach the front speaker connections of the receiver to the high frequency inputs of the speakers?

I’m willing to try it anyway, but I’m afraid to do something wrong. Do I also need to change the speaker amp configuration in the receiver? Because I’m not willing to bi-amp from the receiver only (and I don’t know if the bi-amp option is for that purpose or really when using a separate amp).

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Audiofire]

If so, is it useful, and if yes how do I do this?

The receiver has enough power, so you don't need the other one and vice versa (if the space is a living room or similar size).

 

[JorisCeoen]

The receiver has enough power, so you don't need the other one and vice versa (if the space is a living room or similar size).

Can you explain what that means? Is bi-amping only useful to play louder or something? I had the impression that it should improve bass response and separate highs better..

 

[Audiofire]

Can you explain what that means? Is bi-amping only useful to play louder or something? I had the impression that it should improve bass response and separate highs better..

Yes, playing louder requires the necessary power from an amplifier.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of marketing puffery that is misleading. You can also read subjective listening impressions online about mysterious bass or treble improvement that has no support from science. Except the science called psychoacoustics that includes cognitive bias, a real cause why non-existent improvements are heard.

 

[antcollinet]

Can you explain what that means? Is bi-amping only useful to play louder or something? I had the impression that it should improve bass response and separate highs better..

It's not really much benefit for playing louder even - since most of the power is in the bass in any case.

No impact on sound quality if you are still using the internal crossover of the speaker - and you are.


There can be a benefit if using speakers with no internal crossover - crossing over using DSP before the amps, and then driving the different speaker drivers with different amps. But the benefit there is from the better crossover control rather than from the bi amping.

 

[JorisCeoen]

Yes, playing louder requires the necessary power from an amplifier.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of marketing puffery that is misleading. You can also read subjective listening impressions online about mysterious bass or treble improvement that has no support from science. Except the science called psychoacoustics that includes cognitive bias, a real cause why non-existent improvements are heard.

Ok, so as I understand it, it won't improve the audio quality or seperation in any way, and thus completely unnecessary in my case? I would only try it if it actually helps to have more bass, or more detailed mids and highs (for instance I feel like sometimes the highs feel more far away and the bass more present).

 

[Audiofire]

Ok, so as I understand it, it won't improve the audio quality or seperation in any way, and thus completely unnecessary in my case?

Correct, I have checked that the amplifiers you have are decent enough to have good sound quality (for a normal room size).

For example the graphs at https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/2547-yamaha-a-s1100

You also need to know the instructions at https://manual.yamaha.com/av/20/rxa4a/en-US/3627532555.html

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I would only try it if it actually helps to have more bass, or more detailed mids and highs (for instance I feel like sometimes the highs feel more far away and the bass more present).

Bi-amping won't have any impact on that. The biggest benefit of bi-amping is that you have less of that pesky money cluttering up your bank account.

 

[dualazmak]

There can be a benefit if using speakers with no internal crossover - crossing over using DSP before the amps, and then driving the different speaker drivers with different amps. But the benefit there is from the better crossover control rather than from the bi amping.

Yes, agree, and we also need multichannel-DAC for fully synchronized multichannel DAC processing to feed crossover-ed multiple channels into multiple amps. If you would successfully establish such a DSP-based multichannel audio system, it will definitely "Amaze" and "Wow" you! (e.g. ref. here).

Spoiler

For possible reference and interests,,,
- The latest setup of my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio system: #774 on my project thread

The latest total system diagram:

The latest total signal path:

Actual room air SPL at listening position:

 

[Overseas]

Try biwiring for fun, see if you hear anything different.

 

[DVDdoug]

Try biwiring for fun, see if you hear anything different.

Not worth wasting the time, and a non-controlled sighted test could be misleading. We often fool ourselves, and then you could end-up misleading others...

Bi-amping does allow you to adjust the woofer & tweeter levels independently, but equalization gives you more control and basic bass & treble controls might be better.

 

[Overseas]

You make it sound like bi wiring is illegal or imoral.
Just takes 2 pairs of cables. I am doing it, you know. Come to the dark side.

 

[Overseas]

The bloody AS1100 has 'biwire' indication on front controls, plus biwire instructions in the manual, as well as Kef speakers. So go wild, go with the manuals, see what happens.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

An Audio/Video integrator called me from a customers house (who had purchased an amplifier from us) and proceeded to try and talk me into the audible positives of biamping speakers and that the customer would benefit greatly from purchasing a second amplifier for biamping. Not because of more power, but because "biamping greatly improves imaging and sonic performance".

I was even encouraged to contact Martin Logan to hear from them firsthand how much better their speakers will do when biamped.

When I asked if he could explain how removing the bridge strap could change the sound so drastically there was a lot of weird jumble of talk like "better crossovers" (weird, as the same internal crossovers are used regardless) and then a justification that said person would pay to have me drive out to AB his setup and prove biamping works.

If there are TWO things I can pass on to anyone in the audio world:
1) DO NOT buy expensive cables thinking they will improve sound over the correct cable that is "cheaply" priced
2) DO NOT waste time or effort biamping unless you are going to be doing a truly active crossover setup properly.

For the record, I am still trying to talk the customer out of buying another amp from me to biamp.

 

[antcollinet]

An Audio/Video integrator called me from a customers house (who had purchased an amplifier from us) and proceeded to try and talk me into the audible positives of biamping speakers and that the customer would benefit greatly from purchasing a second amplifier for biamping. Not because of more power, but because "biamping greatly improves imaging and sonic performance".

I was even encouraged to contact Martin Logan to hear from them firsthand how much better their speakers will do when biamped.

When I asked if he could explain how removing the bridge strap could change the sound so drastically there was a lot of weird jumble of talk like "better crossovers" (weird, as the same internal crossovers are used regardless) and then a justification that said person would pay to have me drive out to AB his setup and prove biamping works.

If there are TWO things I can pass on to anyone in the audio world:
1) DO NOT buy expensive cables thinking they will improve sound over the correct cable that is "cheaply" priced
2) DO NOT waste time or effort biamping unless you are going to be doing a truly active crossover setup properly.

For the record, I am still trying to talk the customer out of buying another amp from me to biamp.

Ask him to explain why he thinks you are trying to talk him out of a purchase if there is any chance of it making things better.

You are clearly one of the good guys.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

Ask him to explain why he thinks you are trying to talk him out of a purchase if there is any chance of it making things better.

You are clearly one of the good guys.

The customer has some extra channels so they are going to A/B their speakers (one tower biamped, one tower not)...which is nowhere near close to a proper AB setup, but I am hoping they will be able to not fall for any "psychoacoustic improvement" since talking to me again.

 

[Overseas]

To be noted that I recommend biWIRING for fun, not biAMPING
We paid for some expensive toys, marked biwire so let try it, as it oy requires 2 sets of regular cables.

Otherwise, a very knowledgeable and certified AV expert explained to me oncye what it takes for TRUE biamping and how it works. Not an easy task and not what some brands label as 'biamp' in their manuals.

 

[DonH56]

Bi-amping article: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/bi-amping-101.22817/

 

[hwest]

I have the following amps:

- Yamaha RX-A4A (receiver)
- Yamaha A-S1100 (integrated)

Currently, the fronts (KEF R11’s) are powered solely by the integrated. It’s connected to the pre-out from the receiver. The receiver only powers the surrounds and center (KEF R3’s and R2C).

Can I bi-amp the fronts by separating low/high frequency with respectively the integrated for lows and receiver for highs?

If so, is it useful, and if yes how do I do this?
Do I simply remove the link knobs on the speakers and attach the front speaker connections of the receiver to the high frequency inputs of the speakers?

I’m willing to try it anyway, but I’m afraid to do something wrong. Do I also need to change the speaker amp configuration in the receiver? Because I’m not willing to bi-amp from the receiver only (and I don’t know if the bi-amp option is for that purpose or really when using a separate amp).

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

The key to Bi-Amping is that you can separate out the low and high frequencies from running through the same wire and you can fine tune just the highs with any room correction and manual tuning that you need to do separately if you really want to get into the weeds with tuning individual separated channels which is the biggest benefit in my opinion. In other words, If I don't like how my tweeter sounds I can work on that curve specifically, if I don't like how the mids hit I can work on that curve without impacting my highs. It's a greater control if are willing to invest the time. So far for me running B&W 804's allows me to do what I mentioned above and it has improved the sound which I already thought was great, if you get it right talk about separation and clarity, wow.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

The key to Bi-Amping is that you can separate out the low and high frequencies from running through the same wire and you can fine tune just the highs with any room correction and manual tuning that you need to do separately if you really want to get into the weeds with tuning individual separated channels which is the biggest benefit in my opinion. In other words, If I don't like how my tweeter sounds I can work on that curve specifically, if I don't like how the mids hit I can work on that curve without impacting my highs. It's a greater control if are willing to invest the time. So far for me running B&W 804's allows me to do what I mentioned above and it has improved the sound which I already thought was great, if you get it right talk about separation and clarity, wow.

If you are using an active crossover setup, yes this is a benefit (in terms of better individual control/tailoring of EQ and curves).

But this discussion (and the OP) has been focused on dispelling the myth of Bi-amping as seen on nearly most setups/source components, where there is no active crossover capability and all one is doing is merely removing a bridge on the speaker side while still using the same exact internal crossover network.