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Best AV Processor under $3k? Lexicon MC-10, Anthem AVM 60, or something else?

JSmith

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Lexicon MC-10, which is a rebadged Arcam AV860
IMO never buy anything from Lexi-con... I don't think they even deserve to be in business after the Oppo BDP-83 rebadge debacle years ago.

It's interesting to note certain forums kick people out for mentioning such things... good to know ASR isn't like that.



JSmith
 

trcloud

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I can tell you. When my Lexicon MC-10 powers on with my LG OLED. Some times you can caught a notice on the LG stating: Anthem AVR. It will quickly become Lexicon though.
 

Sal1950

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It's interesting to note certain forums kick people out for mentioning such things...

Ancient Chinese secret Mr Smith. ;)
 

Magnus

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Oddly, I've got a Lexicon DC-1 on its way from the Bay that I plan to plug into my Marantz 7012's 7.1 input circuit to try out Logic7 and Panorama with 2-channel music and maybe try the De-specialized version of Star Wars in its original Dolby Surround glory using 6-10 sets of mono surrounds (from my "Scatmos" expanded surrounds like the old cinema mono arrays to recreate as close a 1977 experience as possible just for the fun of it.

It's kind of a shame that HK pretty much destroyed Lexicon, who used to be top of the heap in the late 1990s.
 

Sal1950

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Oddly, I've got a Lexicon DC-1 on its way from the Bay that I plan to plug into my Marantz 7012's 7.1 input circuit to try out Logic7 and Panorama with 2-channel music and maybe try the De-specialized version of Star Wars in its original Dolby Surround glory using 6-10 sets of mono surrounds (from my "Scatmos" expanded surrounds like the old cinema mono arrays to recreate as close a 1977 experience as possible just for the fun of it.

It's kind of a shame that HK pretty much destroyed Lexicon, who used to be top of the heap in the late 1990s.
I'll be interested in your take on Logic 7, but please try to keep an open mind.
Yes Logic 7 was the top of the heap in the 1990s, but that was 30 years ago.
I've listened to Logic 7 quite a bit in the last few years, a good friend of mine is a big fan.
We do have some very good upsampling codec's today and IMHO much of what gets said is filtered
through nostalgic rose colored glasses. There's also the fact that Logic 7's main intent was to add some
nice room ambiance into the surround speakers at which it is very good. OTOH todays apps attempt to take
the effect a bit futher, actually attempting to create a false sense of discrete channels.
Good luck.
 

Magnus

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I'll be interested in your take on Logic 7, but please try to keep an open mind.
Yes Logic 7 was the top of the heap in the 1990s, but that was 30 years ago.
I've listened to Logic 7 quite a bit in the last few years, a good friend of mine is a big fan.
We do have some very good upsampling codec's today and IMHO much of what gets said is filtered
through nostalgic rose colored glasses. There's also the fact that Logic 7's main intent was to add some
nice room ambiance into the surround speakers at which it is very good. OTOH todays apps attempt to take
the effect a bit futher, actually attempting to create a false sense of discrete channels.
Good luck.
Panorama mode should be interesting too as it's a crosstalk canceling system and I've been experimenting with Sonic Holography in multichannel stereo mode and once I got the speakers and delays tied in just so, it's almost mind blowing on some stereo music (you'd swear you were listening to a well done 5.1/7.1 or even medium level Atmos recording), but the sound quality isn't always perfectly consistent and the Lexicon has a lot of adjustment parameters that should make it possible to compensate for various issues, hopefully.

The Lexicon also has a rear channel Panorama mode that's been described as "spooky" realistic sounding. Based on my experiments with Sonic Holography in multichannel stereo mode, this could be no small exaggeration.

It should be interesting to play with it.

I also recently upgraded my Atmos /X/Auro system to 9.1.8 discrete (Full Heights + Tops with quad mono VOG in Auro-3D mode) plus 2 arrays for 11.1.10 total. It's mind blowing for multichannel immersive music now. I just got Duran Duran's "Danse Macabre" in lossless Atmos a few weeks ago from the SDE Shop and it's jaw dropping amazing sounding with the clearest vocals I've ever heard and excellent use of all speakers.

I hate to say it, but the new Dark Side of the Moon Atmos edition is boring by comparison, not being that different from the upmixed SACD version James Guthrie did. I was hoping for something a little more wild.

David Gilmour should have let Steven Wilson handle it. His Atmos version of the new Tears For Fears album is simply excellent and their best album, IMO since Songs From The Big Chair. "Long long long time" is just exhilarating when it hits the chorus, IMO.

I'm adding some experimental floor effects speakers next using out of phase ambience from my "Scatmos" front wide extraction to move it to the floor and see what happens (ceiling reflections moved to the floor sounded great with live concerts, but not much else; I'm hoping for crazier stuff here). After all, what fun is a hobby without some experimention?
 

Sal1950

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I also recently upgraded my Atmos /X/Auro system to 9.1.8 discrete (Full Heights + Tops with quad mono VOG in Auro-3D mode) plus 2 arrays for 11.1.10 total. It's mind blowing for multichannel immersive music now.
I can only imagine ! Room size and finances keep me restricted to a 5.2.4 system but that's plenty
to create an incredible immersive listening experience in my smallish listening room.
I was also excited by the new Duran Duran Atmos BluRay, an impressive job at the mixing board
for sure. We in the multich community are currently living through some very exciting times with brand new albums and classic remasters coming out so fast I can hardly keep up with buying all the new music. Good thing I have a Apple 4k box for streaming those that I can't currently purchase.
The future so bright, I gotta wear shades. ;)
Cheers.
BTW, We'd enjoy seeing some photos of that awesome system in the members area when you can.
The link to mine are in my signature.
 

rccarguy

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Oddly, I've got a Lexicon DC-1 on its way from the Bay that I plan to plug into my Marantz 7012's 7.1 input circuit to try out Logic7 and Panorama with 2-channel music and maybe try the De-specialized version of Star Wars in its original Dolby Surround glory using 6-10 sets of mono surrounds (from my "Scatmos" expanded surrounds like the old cinema mono arrays to recreate as close a 1977 experience as possible just for the fun of it.

It's kind of a shame that HK pretty much destroyed Lexicon, who used to be top of the heap in the late 1990s.

I've got a Lexicon MC-8 spare

I found Music Surround/Music Logic very good, you can adjust the center/front speech mix, front/back panning, surround roll off etc. So much more adjustability than my Tonewinner AT300
 

Magnus

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It (Lexicon DC-1) came in today. I'd hook it up tonight, but I'm not sure I have enough RCA cables for the 7.1 inputs section on my Atmos AVR. I might have to order some first.

@Sal1950 - I've got photos over at AVS for most things (rack photos aren't updated yet), but I'll take some new ones when I'm done with various upgrades (I've also got a grey tensioned Silver-Ticket screen to put together yet and hang to replace my manual drop screen). I got tired of the little waves you could see in some side pans. I've got an idea how to move to 19-discrete channels while still having an array option for Auro-3Dand Pro Logic as well (speaker selector).

I'm getting a bit nervous about the circuit breaker with so many amps connected (Five AVRs, a stereo amp and a sub plus the projector uses a lot of power too). Two more amp channels would be needed for 19 discrete. I don't dare turn them all on at once. ;)

I might have to get another breaker installed to go to 3 subs and Crowson seat tactile feedback actuators.
 
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Sal1950

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I'm getting a bit nervous about the circuit breaker with so many amps connected (Five AVRs, a stereo amp and a sub plus the projector uses a lot of power too).
That would be a good idea, not sure what type of amps and line that "circuit breaker" is, if you mean a single 15 or 20 amp line,
I would for sure talk to an electrician. All them amps and gear on a single line could very well be restricting the amps output and
causing other issues from voltage drop when things get loud. I've got my avr, 5 amps, the 85" screen, and all the other systems gear divided between 2 20amp service lines.
 

Magnus

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I finally hooked up the Lexicon DC-1 (I got another one with full THX/AC-3/DTS for about $100 shipped). It only has V2 software, but frankly I don't need DD EX or DTS ES. I haven no idea what they improved surround mode wise (only thing I read for V3 plus a nicer remote), but there's no dreaded "click" issue V1 supposedly had according to one review I read.

I need to get a separate analog RCA connection set up (I'll need to get a splitter or something as I have my Sonic Holography unit attached via the breakout box RCA at the moment) as apparently "Panorama" (and DSP) modes only work with the analog inputs.... I don't quite get that seeing as I think it digitizes the inputs anyway.

Logic Modes (Logic7, Logic Surround and Logic Music) all work with optical/coax digital inputs as well as THX Cinema, Pro Logic, Stereo and Party Mode (all channel stereo as far as I can tell). It was pretty easy to setup and once I saw the on-screen menu system, it was obvious the front panel can pretty much handle everything without it, but I used a spare RCA video input on my Marantz 7012 to see it anyway).

The whole thing is plugged into my Marantz 7012 Atmos/Auro/X AVR via its 7.1 Inputs (something the Denon versions didn't have) and I sent an extra set of side outputs (via Y-Splitter to my Marantz NR1403 "Scatmos" height extractors so I can play surround through my Surround Height speakers which are in the same place as my old 6.1 surround setup (in fact they're the same speakers) as well as Rear Heights. I have it connected, but I didn't test it yet (already not getting enough sleep).

The unit did surprisingly well creating a wall of surround sound without them anyway just using my SS, SS#2 and Rear Surround speakers. The front wides extractors also work if there's correlated information between the mains and sides (5.1 or even Logic7). I doubt Lexicon anticipated one of these would be operating as 11.1 output, but it works great.

I think 2-channel stereo sounded better on the Marantz's own 2-channel stereo mode for whatever reason (probably because Audyssey is working there), but it sounded good. I plan to move my subwoofer correction to a Mini-DSP. That will correct the sub for the Lexicon too and let me use 3 subs and a seat shaker of some kind plus BEQ correction. But that's yet to come (I've got it; but I have to hooks it up and program it).

To cut to the chase, I can hear why Logic7 is rated so highly. It blows DSU, Neural X and even Auromatic away for 2-channel -> 7-channel music upmixing. It doesn't move anything in the main stage around like Auro-3D, but it does move decorrelated out-of-phase stuff to the sides and back and it does it in a way that's quite audible. Everything I threw at it from Billy Joel to Tori Amos sounded great in Logic7.

It also does it for Pro Logic and THX and Logic7 with movies too. You can "feel" the room somehow, even with bass. It's quite noticeable in the DeSpecialized Star Wars using the 1977 Dolby Stereo track. That one sounded like crap on DSU and Neural X, but it sounds awesome in any of those 3 modes (not as good as the 70mm 6-channel track, but impressive for Dolby Stereo for sure).

Now I want to hear what Panorama can do compared to Sonic Holography. I had SH dialed in to the point where some songs sounded awesome in multi-channel stereo with it turned on. Panorama is designed to be able to also use the rear speakers so it should be interesting.

Meanwhile, I also did some more work with switching and the extra inputs on the NR1403 units. I can now play 11.1.2 if I so desire to hear what something sounds like with only 2-channel overhead (uses Tops as an array to create Top Middle as I'm using 8-channel Heights+Tops overhead). I just select a different input and Front Height or Top Middle only and it moves it to overhead, but leaves the front stage and dialog "lift" effect in the Front Heights (nifty trick eh?). I also have it set to simulate "egocentric" Tops (50/145) using the Multi-channel stereo mode (mixes allocentric Heights+Tops together to phantom image in-between them). So I can basically run all Height modes except straight Top Middle (there's that pesky steel beam box there) and therefore no 10-channel direct overhead, altough I do have Surroudn Heights available to run by themselves or with Rear Heights for Auro-3D.
 
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Magnus

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I found out why Panorama and other more aren't available with the optical inputs here. It's the tendency for media players to convert everything to flipping 48kHz. Panorama and some other modes on the DC-1 only work at 44.1kHz. So analog may be necessary to make it simplified to use.

I don't quite get it, though with KODI on the Nvidia Shield. You can force it to use 44.1kHz by using "fixed" output limited to 44.1kHz, but it will not automatically play songs ripped from CDs at 44.1kHz even though that's their native rate! With iOS, Apple simply won't allow 44.1kHz for insane reasons unknown (Gen1 Apple TVs played 44.1kHz perfectly and so DTS CDs played automatically), but if KODI can force 44.1 on the Shield (itself now having a "use native rate" option), WTF doesn't it ALWAYS use it when the source is 44.1kHz?

It makes no sense and it's a royal PITA to manually switch it constantly (easier to extract RCA outs and have the Lexicon convert back to digital again, but that's a terrible methodology that could eventually affect sound quality (although it'd work for 48kHz sources).
 

Beershaun

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I found out why Panorama and other more aren't available with the optical inputs here. It's the tendency for media players to convert everything to flipping 48kHz. Panorama and some other modes on the DC-1 only work at 44.1kHz. So analog may be necessary to make it simplified to use.

I don't quite get it, though with KODI on the Nvidia Shield. You can force it to use 44.1kHz by using "fixed" output limited to 44.1kHz, but it will not automatically play songs ripped from CDs at 44.1kHz even though that's their native rate! With iOS, Apple simply won't allow 44.1kHz for insane reasons unknown (Gen1 Apple TVs played 44.1kHz perfectly and so DTS CDs played automatically), but if KODI can force 44.1 on the Shield (itself now having a "use native rate" option), WTF doesn't it ALWAYS use it when the source is 44.1kHz?

It makes no sense and it's a royal PITA to manually switch it constantly (easier to extract RCA outs and have the Lexicon convert back to digital again, but that's a terrible methodology that could eventually affect sound quality (although it'd work for 48kHz sources).
Yep. It's so frustrating what all the mobile operating system based streamers do to our audio signals. It's all resampled to 48khz because the OS inserts itself into the audio workflow in case it needs to send audio from other sources, like a notification, phone call, or command feedback "ding".
 

Magnus

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Yep. It's so frustrating what all the mobile operating system based streamers do to our audio signals. It's all resampled to 48khz because the OS inserts itself into the audio workflow in case it needs to send audio from other sources, like a notification, phone call, or command feedback "ding".
The strange thing is that the 44.1kHz can be forced only in one setting. I've got a JTech device inserted that extracts an optical and RCA connection, but it has a manual switch on it. If it's in "5.1" mode, KODI on the Shield can force 44.1kHz for music files and it works as well as being able to convert everything to Dolby Digital and DTS that the Lexicon can then use.

The problem is that in that position, the JTech device will not pass a Dolby Atmos signal so you have to manually switch it back to "TV" mode to get Atmos and TrueHD, etc. working again. But then the 44.1kHz switch doesn't work anymore for some unknown reason. I verified that it's not just forcing everything to 44.1kHz. If I change the setting to 48kHz in KODI, it goes to 48kHz immediately. So I don't understand how it's able to function in one mode, but not the other. KODI can still send the Lexicon Dolby Digital or DTS in that "TV" mode, just not 44.1kHz audio. It's very strange.

I'm going to have to just send the RCA outputs to the Lexicon instead of my Carver Sonic Holography unit and then feed the Carver the Zone2/Record outputs from the Lexicon. Then, if I want to use Panorama mode, I'll switch to the analog input and if I want to hear "5.1 Logic 7" or "DTS Logic 7" I'll switch to the optical input. It's not ideal (the Lexicon will auto-switch modes if it's given the proper inputs), but at least it would work.

Overall, the Lexicon sounded quite good in Logic7, even fed Atmos music as 5.1, it got most of the rear information correct. It did choke on Alan Parsons' ON AIR album on the last "Blue Blue Sky" track in THX 5.1 mode (doesn't use rear speakers separately) in that as the guy singing moves to the right side of the room, it does some weird echo/cut out thing like it's having an amplifier bad connection or something. It did it if I used direct DTS or converted to Dolby Digital and I confirmed the track played correctly when sent directly to my Marantz 7012 with the Auromatic upmixer used (It doesn't use rears either) or turning off rears and playing DTS directly (how the track was meant to be played in 5.1). So it's not any amplifier issue. That's kind of sad a $5000 processor considered near top of the line in 1999 can't play that track correctly (it does better in Logic7 mode, but there's still some slight anomaly in that spot).

I compared Panorama with Logic7 after calibrating both. There's a definite tonal difference. Panorama seems "heavier" in the mid-bass or somewhere in that vicinity, but even though it seems "clearer" in Logic7, I kind of miss the bass just the same. Imaging seems oddly similar with a calibrated Panorama imaging in 360 degrees, similar to when I tried Carver's Sonic Holography in Multi-Channel Stereo mode after I got all the speakers aligned just so except that SH doesn't sound good with every song in that mode, but Panorama seems acceptable, at least, all the time so far.

Panorama, after making some adjustments, does reasonably well simulating Binaural Headphone tricks with my Zucharelli Holophonics CD. It's not perfect, but you can definitely hear the effect. I got close with Sonic Holography in multichannel stereo mode as well, but I think Panorama works slightly better, but it's not night and day like some have told me in the past. There's some settings to make Panorama less picky (you can set it to sit off center, for example or change the relative speaker angle whereas it's fixed on Carver), but it still requires precision alignment to sound its best so they're not as different as I imagined either.
 

AudioX3

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Rather old lasting thread ran across looking for info on Lexicon MC-8.

(Note I just realized the MC-10 is a different animal / heritage than the MC-8. My MC-8 comments thus probably don't apply to MC-10. Lexicon essentially rebadges other vendor products, adds their Logic 7 SW suite, puts a gorgeous face on the product, and uplifts the price significantly. However, the Lexicon MC-8 I love and may not be the norm for Lexicon)

First my ask, then my comments.

How can i get my hands on any firmware updates for the Lexicon MC-8? I don't have the Mic add on card nor plan on getting it so if the only update is the 2.0 to add the Mic HW and features I can live wthot it.

Now my comments.

1. Arcam makes great products, but indeed they are quirky, expensive and poor support along with having to pay for SW or Firmware updates that should be free and user implementable.
2. Thus unless you enjoy pain, buying anything Arcam new or at a used price still way too expensive than it should be, well good luck but you better be rich and enjoy frustration.
3. One in general can add Accurus, Proceed, and others to that list, including Lexicon particularly new and many overpriced used.
4. A big however, the odd duck Lexicon MC-8 is a phenominal preamp / preprocessor. I have not had any issues with it, bought it used for around $200 and it is audiophile grade for Analog, Digital and great 5.1 / 7.1 audio decoding plus Logic7 though i personally really don't care about the Logic 7.
5. So while no HDMI, but i send my Video HDMI direct to the TV anyway and let the Lexicon MC-8 handle all the AV audio digital or analog. And the DAC works fine, whatever chip it may actually be.
6. So our cult of very happy Lexicon MC-8 ludites remain on it as it performs outstanding today and i just stick with it.

As an aside, the consensus here appears to have gravitated towarrd Anthem. I picked up an Anthem Statement D2 recently for also around $200 and will be giving it a chance sometime to replace or add as another system with the Lexicon MC-8. We shall see when I get the time to play around.

To wrap it up,

1) If anyone has insights on firmware upgrade how to and if should on the Lexicon MC-8, greatly appreciated.
2) Any commentary on the Anthem Statement D2, also greatly appreciated.
 
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Magnus

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Do newer HK products have a Mono Logic mode like the old Lexicon DC-1/MC-1 processors? It's quite an improvement here with older mono movies with an Academy Filter and there's an option to expand the soundstage width/depth for music and sound effects, which works well to a point, beyond which dialog can get mistakenly separated as an effect. But it sounds miles better than Mono through a regular mode or my Marantz's upmixers.
 

Newman

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So, as we enter 2024, what is today's best answer to the OP's topic?

And may I please ask for maximum up-to-date feature set, 11+ main channels, and global availability.

Because it's a really good topic.
 

Magnus

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That would be a good idea, not sure what type of amps and line that "circuit breaker" is, if you mean a single 15 or 20 amp line,
I would for sure talk to an electrician. All them amps and gear on a single line could very well be restricting the amps output and
causing other issues from voltage drop when things get loud. I've got my avr, 5 amps, the 85" screen, and all the other systems gear divided between 2 20amp service lines.

I just bought a Lexicon MC-1 off eBay. That's two DC-1 units and now an MC-1. I'm going to put the MC-1 in the home theater (It has V4 software including DD/DTS EX), the DD/DTS with V2 in my living room setup and the DD only one in my exercise room for Logic based surround sound music (I've got an old Denon in there with 5.1 inputs). These are fun! $135 for something that cost $6000 in 1999 and still sounds awesome (short of Atmos; Logic7 gets 5.1->7.1 from 7.1 sources correct about 90% of the time in testing here).... Crazy. To think someone could have had pretty darn close to perfect 7.1 sound clear back in 1998! Even Star Wars 2-channel in Logic7 mode sounds closer to 7.1 than Pro Logic in Logic7 mode! The 6.1 Blu-Rays didn't even come out until 2011! I'm amazed how well it does with everything up to 7.1 (and with Scatmos here, it really does 11.1).

The Dolby Helicopter demo moves around the ear level of my room just like it does if I turn the ceiling speakers off on the Marantz Atmos AVR. Atmos/X/Auro are about the only things it can't do (and not "perfect" 7.1 or lossless). Mono Logic is great for old movies. Logic7 is also awesome for 2-channel music sources (turn off Re-EQ and Auto Azimuth if they're on). It blows away even Auro-3D's Auromatic upmixer. Panorama is designed to do what I did experimenting with Carver's Sonic Holography in Multi-Channel Stereo mode and it pretty much nails it. Logic7 also has a 5-channel mode that simulates 7-channel speakers (I'll try that out in the living room when I get it hooked up).
 
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