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Denon AVR-AH1 vs Anthem AVM 90
- Thread starter jabber1066
- Start date
Regarding being able to hear a difference between AVRs & AVPs I enjoyed reading this from Audioholics.
www.audioholics.com
Audio Listening Test That Fooled the Hollywood Sapphire Group
Some of the most highly trained audiophiles in the industry were asked to do a blind “A-B” listening comparison test of two audio circuits. Were they able to hear a difference, or were they fooled?
Theo just posted the AVM90 reviews, both pt1 and pt2 are now on Youtube, the Audioholics.com channel:
The 2nd one below is Pt2, that includes the measurements:
The pre out SINAD, SNR, linearity etc., look great but seems within margin of errors and tolerances, in the same ball park as the Marantz AV10, and Denon AVC-A1H (based on manufacturer's own bench tests), but the IMD is exceptional:
Take a look:
This is the first time I see the IMD of an AVP that good, as good as many (better than some) dedicated desktop DACs measured on ASR.
The 2nd one below is Pt2, that includes the measurements:
The pre out SINAD, SNR, linearity etc., look great but seems within margin of errors and tolerances, in the same ball park as the Marantz AV10, and Denon AVC-A1H (based on manufacturer's own bench tests), but the IMD is exceptional:
Take a look:
This is the first time I see the IMD of an AVP that good, as good as many (better than some) dedicated desktop DACs measured on ASR.
If you listen to a Marantz AV10 and an Anthem AVM 90 you should be able to hear the difference which I call music that is alive vs flat. The AVM 90 is alive, you be the honest judge on the Marantz and tell me that it doesn't sound a bit flat compared to the AVM 90. I don't think you can.
Sure, but as mentioned by many, including experts, that unless you listen to those without knowing which one you are listening to, your "judgement" would be anectotal at best.
I listened to the AVM90, it was great, but my AVM70 is great too. There is a point of diminishing return. I may trade the 70 in for the 90, or something else, eventually, or may keep it for 10 years.
I do feel like the 90 is quite expensive but I also feel like it's more effortlessly approaching those Trinnov's and Lyndorfs at twice the price. Many are actually starting to compare the sound on the 90 to a Trinnov which is crazy as it's so much less expensive. There are many component upgrades in the 90 that you don't get in the 70 and I can certainly hear the difference as I listened to both before buying. Two channel and movies I can easily hear the difference.Sure, but as mentioned by many, including experts, that unless you listen to those without knowing which one you are listening to, your "judgement" would be anectotal at best.
I listened to the AVM90, it was great, but my AVM70 is great too. There is a point of diminishing return. I may trade the 70 in for the 90, or something else, eventually, or may keep it for 10 years.
The measurements on the 90 are excellent as well. However, I know we love to look at spec sheets and they matter to a certain extent but there is also a diminishing return when you have two units measuring similar but one has flat sound and the other sounds alive and most that care about sound can tell the difference, I'm talking about the same environment, the same speakers and same settings only replacing the unit itself. I would say many don't pay attention to sound to the degree that they don't even care, many fall into this category and are really not interested enough in sound for their opinion to count very much, I see it all the time.
The point is when you can appreciate sound and have heard so many different systems you will likely be compelled to get the best system you can afford, for me my cutoff was the AVM 90 because14K was just too much money for me to spend on a Lyndorf, I got my 90 for 6K on a Black Friday Sale which made it worth it, not too much of an investment since after I sold two of my Onkyo's. If I had the money I wouldn't do a Trinnov I would probably buy a Lyndorf so essentially I'm saying the same thing about the Lyndorf that you are saying about the 90, after hearing both the Lyndorf and the 90, I knew I could tweak the 90 to sound really good and close to the Lyndorf and that's what I have done, a ton of flexibility on the system which I'm taking advantage of for my room dimensions. Perhaps in my particular shaped room I'm getting some room gain that others may not get, I don't know, I just know it sounds amazing so far and I'm just getting started with it. I really do like the Auto Phase Adjustment option as I have three Subs and boy does that make a difference in time savings before putting the final touches on my system.
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If both measured so well, as Gene commented multiple times that the slight differences in the measured FR, THD, IMD, DNR, XT, etc. etc are not audible, then why would one sound flat and the other one lively. To me, chances are much higher that people are just being highly imaginative and that's why those who took the time participate in DBTs could not hear such flat vs lively vs musical, time and again.
What are the things that Gene, J. Atkinson, Amir failed to measure?
Again, I do prefer the 90 anyway, but I have no need to upgrade at the moment. There is no need to try and convince each other on this hot topic as such debates have been ongoing to long enough in the hifi world
It may come down to the flexibility of settings one can tweak to get that extra level of sound. Some systems have tons of features and gadgets but they don't have a big impact on what you hear, almost gimmick like rather than being impactful. Yes I don't want to resurrect old conversations I just want folks coming here to understand they need to listen not just measure I found that out with my Onkyo-PRSC 5530 which I had sounding great, I saw no need to go with Denon or Marantz which is why I was looking at the Lyndorf even at it's big pricetag. The AVM 90 fills the gap for me and I highly believe it would fill the gap for many not wanting to spend 14K, that's all I'm saying, and I encourage others to go take a listen to a big box Denon, Marantz, or even a Lyndorf (Which I love) Trinnov then an AVM 90 and see where you fall. I'm betting most will share my opinion after hearing for themselves, in fact many of the big reviewers are already saying this now.
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Svend P
Active Member
In general we don't believe that electronics that measure similar, sound different. But if you compare with an Onkyo pre, it might be so bad which could explain a difference.
"Overall this is one of the most broken AV Processors out there with respect to audio"
Onkyo PR-RZ5100 AV Processor Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Onkyo PR-RZ5100 Audio/Video Processor (AVP). It is on kind loan from a member. The PR-RZ5100 was announced (I think) around 2017 and seems to be discontinued. It cost US $2,300. The outside enclosure certainly gives a "high-end" feel to the...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Yeah, I'm not referring to the newer Onkyo's. I had probably the best Pre-Pro Onkyo has ever made which is the PRSC-5530. If it had support for Dolby Vision and HDR10+ Passthrough I may still be using it but my sources have become a little too much for it to handle effectively without splitting out the video and audio, then sound and video begin to suffer a little bit. However, it did support 4K Passthrough and Dolby Atmos and many channels.In general we don't believe that electronics that measure similar, sound different. But if you compare with an Onkyo pre, it might be so bad which could explain a difference.
"Overall this is one of the most broken AV Processors out there with respect to audio"
Onkyo PR-RZ5100 AV Processor Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Onkyo PR-RZ5100 Audio/Video Processor (AVP). It is on kind loan from a member. The PR-RZ5100 was announced (I think) around 2017 and seems to be discontinued. It cost US $2,300. The outside enclosure certainly gives a "high-end" feel to the...
I would put the new Onkyo's in the Denon and Marantz category now, whereas the older one's produced a really good sound stage, power is great on them, and some of the circuitry on the higher end older models just gave it that great sound, not a fan of any newer models. That 5100 was by far the worst processor every made by Onkyo, I can attest to that I heard it live and demo'd one for a month, could never tweak it to produce even decent sound let alone average sound.
The PRSC-5530 remains the best sounding unit Onkyo has ever produced. It is also feature rich for most people but I'm running an 85 inch 8K TV that supports HDR10+ and a few sources that it could handle better from a passthrough perspective.
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Yes, it's been done and I posted the link in post#43. Measurements are great, though not quite as good as the Marantz AV10, though for real world use I doubt a few dB would make an audible difference.
Yes I saw the YouTube videos but I like Amir more in-depth reviews. The second video was a lot of subjective stuff rather than data!
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Yeah, nothing against Theo at all, he's a great reviewer. But he doesn't have the gear that Gene has. Gene's AV10 review is extremely comprehensive by comparison.
Oh that's great can't wait to see what Amir says about it, I'll check it out tonight after work.
I doubt Amir would say anything unless he has reasons to, obviously. To be clear, it was an Audioholics.com review. The subjective part was mainly based on Theo's comparing it with the AVM60, and the AVM60 clearly did not measured too well (by Amir) though it was too bad imo either.
Well, Anthem had to up their game considerably for me to buy anything they make and they certainly did. Hearing the 70 is good hearing the 90 is great, it's the first good implementation where you can hear the results of better internal components including caps, dac, design, board, etc. They didn't go cheap on the components for the 90 and you can tell.
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