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Best AV Processor under $3k? Lexicon MC-10, Anthem AVM 60, or something else?
- Thread starter jtremble
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I'm another hopeless nostalgic for Logic7... I had the DC1 and then the MC1, and finally succumbed to the HDMI generation with an AVR... The subsequent Lexicon products were far too rich for my blood!
Then they got Harmanised - the Lexicon brand (and its development team!) - got left to wither on the vine, Logic7 found itself on Harman AVR's for a while - and then on JBL AVR/AVP's...
But the price of entry into Logic7 (and later Logic16) capable devices, has made it difficult to seriously consider them in value for money terms.
I still think Logic7 was the bees knees for music.
Then they got Harmanised - the Lexicon brand (and its development team!) - got left to wither on the vine, Logic7 found itself on Harman AVR's for a while - and then on JBL AVR/AVP's...
But the price of entry into Logic7 (and later Logic16) capable devices, has made it difficult to seriously consider them in value for money terms.
I still think Logic7 was the bees knees for music.
Expensive? I just bought a MC-1 for $136 shipped fully working, $68 (~$103 shipped) for DC-1 with DD/DTS/THX and another DD only model for around $120. I plan to use them in three different rooms.
The MC-1 will go in my home theater room, plugged into my Marantz 7012's 7.1 inputs (DC-1 there currently). It's a shame more AVRs don't still have 7.1 inputs. They're great for this sort of thing!
If only someone would make a 7.1->HDMI converter box, you could still work around it on other models, although the video could be a real issue as you'd need a splitter option for the source. I've only seen a stereo to HDMI box before. Tape loops, etc seem to be a relic of the past.
exm
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Sorry, but Logic 7 is really a one-of-a-kind.
exm
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Yeah, I worked with a similar setup using 7.1 analog in. It works, but it's a pain to use. That's why I ended up with the Lyngdorf unit: not sure if it's the same for DD5.1>L7 upmixing but it certainly comes close.
I don't think it's a pain to use at all once I got all the setup stuff done and matched relative levels. I bought a JTech breakout box for my Nvidia Shield, which gives me analog 2-channel and digital optical output I send to the Lexicon.
All I have to do for music on KODI is select the 7.1 input and hit play. I don't even have to change any KODI settings for 2-channel PCM like CD rips. The volume level is more or less the same.
The analog inputs work with Panorama and Mono Movie (just connect to a different input; they've got plenty of them). I'm not sure if the 44.1kHz requirements apply to the MC-1 series or not. I guess I'll find out.
The Lexicon can be set to automatically use a given mode depending on the format. I've got it set to Logic7 or 5.1 Logic7 for everything with the settings I like. I only need the optical jack for Logic7.
For everything else, there's nothing to do for either stereo or 5.1 albums of any kind except to set KODI to use 2.0/DD transcoding and DTS/DTS "Core" (It'll turn even DTS:X into core DTS without transcoding). FLAC and anything else gets turned into Dolby Digital (I assume 640kbps, which sounds pretty good for 5.1). It then literally plays everything including base tracks from Atmos albums, etc.
If someone made a breakout box with individual coaxial channel sets at 24/96, the MC-1 can take 24/96 5.1 through its expansion ports. I doubt I could tell the difference, though.
For my Zidoo player, you just set it to down mix to 5.1 and it already has an optical hack (I just ordered an AVout cable for analog for Panorama mode and Mono Logic).
If you are seeking a 5.1.4 processor - the X3800 is more expensive than the equivalent Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer, especially when adding the Dirac licence fees...
If running only a single sub - DLBC doesn't provide anything additional - all you need is Dirac Live
The weakness of the X3800/RZ50 (and most other AVR competitors) - is a lack of current when driving speakers where the impedance can drop below 3ohm (sometimes below 2 ohm) - in that case, you need to use external amps to bolster the output (and the external amps need to be suitable for low impedance speakers!... not much point running external amps that have the same issue as the internal ones !!
)If moving to a dual sub setup, then you need to go up to AVR's that support at least 2 independent sub outputs, and preferably DLBC....
Then the decision becomes more complex... the X3800 + DLBC licences is a good option - but it brings its price close to the cost of an Onkyo RZ70 + DLBC - and the Onkyo has High current amps capable of handling low impedance speakers...
So you could be looking at X3800+DLBC+External amp vs RZ70+DLBC....
If you want more than 2 subs - the Denon's are definitely the way to go.
And none of these alternatives have Logic7/16.
You would end up with a highly complex setup, with multiple processing points, and no simple integrated means to tune or tweak your decoding... Your signal comes in over HDMI - has to get decoded, then it needs to get processed (upmix/downmix) which is where L7 comes in, then the signal (preferably in digital all the way!) - needs to be passed back to the AVR to be processed for RoomEQ... and you have issues with rate conversions along the way etc... - and you are still talking base layer only.
It's an audio rube goldberg machine!
If you want ease of use, a modern integrated setup, and with L7, JBL SDR-38 or SDP-58 are really the only current market choices.
There are some older models from Harman, Lexicon and JBL that can handle HDMI inputs - but you will lose height (so works fine for base layer only).
I sold my fully upgraded MC1 about 15 to 20 years ago ... and yes I still miss L7 - although Dolby PLII did a very decent job, sadly, it too was retired and no longer appears on current AVR/AVP's - Dolby Surround (current version) is quite good... but yes order of preference (based on unreliable audio memory!) is L7>PLII>DSur .
A number of people have said that Auro is better than DSur, and possibly better than PLII - whether it is better than L7/16 for music is an interesting question... Auro is available on many current AVR's.
Options...
Rube Goldberg method:
Or, just a Napkin....
25 years ago, I would have experimented with the Rube Goldberg option... because it was fun and interesting. Now I would just use a napkin.
What part above how simple operation is don't you seem to get? I select the 7.1 audio input instead of HDMI and I'm good for music or 2-channel Dolby Surround. That's hardly a Rube Goldberg option.
The Zidoo has its own optical output, so no, there's no conversion on that player from HDMI audio.
Pass the signal back to the AVR? WTF?! You literally cannot do that nor do you have to. A simple Mini-DSP can handle 4 subs or 3 plus a Crowson actuator channel with MSO and BEQ support! I only correct at most to Schroeder (See Dr. Toole on why) so one octave out of the sub range is no big deal for Logic7 (It never had correction back in the day anyway).
Room treatments work better for multiple rows above Schroeder anyway. Audyssey or DIRAC or whatever (minus the sub channel) still works with the main AVR.
Go ahead and spend a fortune on a high-end AVR/AVP. You're just tossing your money down the toilet. Most high end stuff is that way. I've got 11.1.10 here (Heights+Tops plus optional Surround Heights) with a 11.1 AVR for that matter. The cost per channel above 11 is almost criminal, IMO.
Fortunately, there's a nice cheap solution that works perfectly to add more "near discrete" channels. It's called "Scatmos" and reverse polarity Scatmos. It has the added benefit of front wides and ss#2 working with literally everything (even the Lexicon in Logic7 mode; I suppose it's really Logic11 in a way now ).
You simply extract the channels with steering logic (the same thing Neural X does digitally internally for DTS:X Pro). DTS:NEO6 or Neural Surround works best, but Pro Logic II works quite well also and used PLII AVRs are dirt cheap. Output is the center or surround (reverse polarity input).
That's a bit more complicated wiring wise, but hardly rocket science and to save $18k on a Storm or Trinnov (which have no 7.1 inputs for a Lexicon) and seeing I'm an Electronic Engineer... It's no big deal at all. You have to expect a few wires rolling 21+ speakers. I'm planning on adding experimental floor effects speakers from the uncorrelated outputs of the front wide extractors once I get the last pair of speakers in.
I thought about trying the new Sony 7000ES AVR connected via 7.1 + another set of inputs on the ceiling extractors. It supports discrete floor output in the front for Sony 360 audio on Amazon Unlimited, but I don't want to give up 11.1.8 Atmos operation and Auro-3D. But I wouldn't have to that way, but I would have to ditch the Lexicon since the Sony has no passthrough.
I've swapped out the Lexicon DC-1 running V2 Firmware for a Lexicon MC-1 running V4 firmware ($6K originally in 1999). The Logic 7 mode sounds even better. I don't know if that's due to the improved hardware (different DACs for sure), the firmware improving the mode or I calibrated it better this time, but it sounds spectacular with 2-channel music. I don't think I can listen to straight stereo anymore. I never thought I'd find an upmixer better than straight stereo all of the time, but I threw dozens of songs at it and it's always better.
Left Equipment Rack with Lexicon DC-1 sitting below the Marantz 7012 (Marantz NR1403 on top for 1/2 of ceiling extraction to Heights+Tops). The Onkyo ES600 on the bottom below the old laserdisc player is for SS#2. The Yamahas for front wides and 2nd NR1403 and Onkyo are in the right rack. Some speaker switches with impedance matching are on top.
Left Equipment Rack with Lexicon DC-1 sitting below the Marantz 7012 (Marantz NR1403 on top for 1/2 of ceiling extraction to Heights+Tops). The Onkyo ES600 on the bottom below the old laserdisc player is for SS#2. The Yamahas for front wides and 2nd NR1403 and Onkyo are in the right rack. Some speaker switches with impedance matching are on top.
Based on what evidence? I didn't see any measurements of this receiver on the Internet. Based on how poorly the RZ50 amps perform compared to competitors, I'm not optimistic.
I'll take an 3800+Buckeye over the RZ70 any day of the week.
At present I would posit several strong indications:
1) The Onkyo claim that it is a High Current design / Power Supply
2) The weight of the AVR - which typically, at least 1/3rd of the weight is the PSU
3) referring to past Onkyo/Integra AVR's of the same category, of which I have owned two
Yes, I absolutely want to see measurements - but I have a high degree of confidence.
Denon has actually advertised the weight of its transformers in some of their published specs... because with a traditional transformer (rather than a switching PSU) weight is directly related to current capability....
The RZ70 at 22kg is right in the middle between the 15kg X6800 and the 32kg A1H - it is a decent indication that it should be a good High Current design.
Not that I have anything against an X3800 + Buckeye combination, I am doing something very similar with my Integra+Crown... but there is something appealing about the integrated simplicity of a received doing what it is supposed to do (ie: everything!) without needing the additional cabling, power point, and space of an external amp.
With the RZ70 (and its siblings) or the A1H there really shouldn't be a need for external amps
All good points to consider, but as usual, you and I never seem to agree on everything, though that should be considered normal. Below are just counter points, not that I disagree with you totally, not at all.
1) That's almost totally anecdotal! Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, NAD, and many more, also claim high current, they all know internet hearsay is king, if you repeat the same often enough, it will become fact to a lot of people, unfortunately.
2) That is not always true, very often not. I have compiled a spreadsheet (you likely have seen it) with a great number of S&V bench test results of AVR output power into 4 ohms, and while the beloved Onkyo 805, 905, 906 were among the tops, their didn't rank higher than the Denon AVR-4308CI that weighed 10 lbs less. Weight is a good indicator as you alluded to in general, but please do not ignore other factors such as the material used, size of the enclosure, heatsink design, overall efficiency and a few other factors.
3) I understand you own some of those high current Onkyo AVRs, that does not mean you can make generalized statement, there are other Onkyo AVRs that did not do well in even the basic S&V, and other bench tests. Again, yes, the 805, 905, 906, DTR-8.8, NR3010 are all considered "high current" (not only by you, but by me too.
), but those are dated, for the recent models, we have to do more analysis on available test results.Agreed that we need to see measurements. As to your high degree of confidence, in my humble opinion, and respectfully I think your confidence is misguided, based on a few dated devices that scored very well on bench tests, that does not reflect current situations.
That may be true, but it should not be generalized, I have extensive experience in power transformers, surely we can predict current capability of transformers of the same design, say by the same manufacturers, but we could be way off the mark if we use weight to predict the same on transformers of different design and/or by different manufacturers. That is further complicated by other things that affect the size and weight of the enclosures, heat sink design, shielding (example: use of copper plates on devices such as flag ship level AVRs), steel plates for whatever reasons, additional force cooling, or not etc.).
I think you are making too many generalized statements..., though in this case I appreciate for your choice of word, namely "decent indication", thanks for that.
I know you are not against anything, just feel you are biased towards Onkyo lol.., just because you have some experience you shared a few times on how some devices you owned could drive you specific speakers that have low impedance dips coincided with high phase angles while other seemingly more powerful devices could not. To that, I would say, with due respect, get over it! Don't get fixated on things because of some experience, and ignore the possibility that there might have been other factors involved in those specific scenarios/experiences.
I think @peng covers my response pretty thoroughly. The very poor performance of the RZ50 compared to the 3800 alone should make one have serious doubts about the RZ70.
I don't interpret the benchtests of the RZ50 as having "very poor performance" - I consider it an excellent AVP, and it's key weakness is the amps inability to handle difficult speakers (ie: low impedance) - which the X3800 suffers from as well.
I remedy the amp issue with an external amp and take advantage of the excellent AVP performance.
I also continue to wait for a more complete test of the RZ70... there was a test in a German publication... from which the following were posted:
- stereo 264W 4 Ohm 1kHz Sinus
- 5.1 159W 6 Ohm 1kHz Sinus
- 7.1 88W 6 Ohm 1kHz Sinus
Given the base rating of 140W@8ohm, 264W@4ohm is a solid indication of high current capability, as it almost doubles (the theoretical "ideal") the 8 ohm rating.
If you want a high current capable AVR which has been measured - there isn't anything out there other than the A1H....
None of the other Denon or Marantz AVR's provide high current/low impedance handling.
Sadly, no 2 ohm test is listed.
Do keep in mind the Onkyo RZ50 actually did quite well, nowhere near SOTA but very respectable. It is the power amp section that it did not do well relative to others at the same price point. Even with that, for practical use it may never trigger protection mode so it depends on the usage, though for peace of mind, it is better to pair the RZ50 with a 200 W/300 W 8/4 ohm rated power amps such as one of buckeyeamp's, or Apollon's that measured well on the 4 ohm load tests.
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As I understand it, the Pioneer VSX-LX505 can be used an AV processor but it is not as flexible compared to other options in managing subwoofers. Slick Deals currently shows a $649 price for the Pioneer VSX-LX505 at Adorama.
It only has a single sub channel... the Dirac software is fine at tuning the sub to crossover with the speakers, but it does not provide the sophisticated room node management that tools like DLBC provide... If you have more than one sub and want to do something sophisticated with them, it will need to be external.
