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Audiophile objections to blind testing - an attempt from a layman

I think you vastly underestimated the knowledge of the marketing departments in this industry.
Car manufacturers tuning the sound and feel of door closure, switches, or the sound of the exhaust. Manufacturers adding weights that have no practical purpose. Manufacturers spending more on the packaging than on the product it contains. Or even the feel of knobs and buttons on hifi. There are many more examples of things done to increase the perceived quality of a product without improving its performance.
 
OP surely reads as such...

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JSmith
So interestingly it seems like most posters believe I am a subjectivist that believe that the argument proposed is fact or even just my opinion - which it isn't.

I just watched this christmas show on TV and had a thought that reminds me of how I used to think in my subjectivist past, and due to my lack of knowledge and understanding couldn't really understand why this thought was wrong - so decided to bring it before you guys.
 
There are no valid objections, period.

I think you vastly underestimated the knowledge of the marketing departments in this industry.

Marketing has always been about tricking you to buy things you don't need.
 
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There are no valid objections, period.



Marketing has always been about tricking you to buy things you don't need.
....and the trick only has to last until the money is in the seller's pocket for good.
 
Or even the feel of knobs and buttons on hifi.
I worked for Garrard in the mid 1970s.
We bought competitors products for evaluation and this was a clear objective in them.
Because dealers were pressured by Technics and Pioneer to take their turntables if they wanted to sell their electronics Garrard looked into buying OEM kit to brand as Garrard to avoid their record decks being dropped.
The first I looked at was a cassette deck available with a Pioneer badge on but from a specialist cassette deck maker who supplied lots of other brands.
On the front panel was a large level control with a lovely feel. Further examination showed the feel came entirely from the silicone grease on a stamped steel disc sprung against the faceplate, the control itself was a mini screwdriver acting on a pre-set pot, ie a part designed to be set and left, not used frequently.
The deck looked and felt great but was pretty poor performing,
 

Audiophile objections to blind testing - why?​


there might be lots of motives, also, there could be just one …

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Sometimes people just really, really want to believe BS, and they'll desperately try to object to even the hardest of evidence.

 
Just stumbled on this thread from a couple months ago and thought I'd chime in.

There's a bit of snark from a few people here that seems... unnecessary to me. The OP seemed to be asking a reasonable question in good faith. Engaging with that question and "steelmanning" a possible argument against blind testing seems to me to be a worthwhile exercise from time to time.

In this case, I understand the OP's possible argument against blind testing to be, "in blind tests where people were asked to identify foods only by taste, without other indicators that we usually use to identify food, such as sight or touch, most people did extraordinarily badly at identifying even foods with very strong taste. Does that mean that isolating individual senses and removing other senses from the equation actually makes us poorer, not better, at using the isolated sense?"

Totally fair question. As a couple of other people have said in the thread, I think the important point where this doesn't analogize to blind testing in audio is the difference between identification and distinction. Ask people in a blind test to differentiate between a pickled herring and a strawberry, and I'll put $1,000 on 10 contestants scoring 10/10. Likewise, if you just walk me into a room blindfolded and play some music and ask me to identify the speakers or the amplifier, other than just throwing out random guesses, I'll never get it in a million years, even if you're playing music on speakers I'm intimately familiar with.

It is true that our other senses are extremely important to identifying things; however, those other senses can often override and fool us when trying to differentiate between very similar things. There's a famous example involving wine, where wine experts were served white wine with food colouring to make it appear red, and they all used words associated with red wine to describe the flavour. Would these wine experts have been able to differentiate coloured white wine from red wine in a blind test? Almost certainly. But the power of expectation, the power of their other senses, overrode or interfered with what their taste buds were telling them.

Give people in a blind test a glass of red wine, and a glass of white wine with food colouring, and most will be able to differentiate between them. Serve them a single glass in isolation, blindfolded, and they may do poorly in identifying whether they're drinking red or white. Serve people in a blind test two glasses of Merlot, one from a $15 bottle and one from a $30 bottle, and the overwhelming majority, even trained sommeliers, will be unable to tell the difference. What conclusion should we draw from that? I'd say the most reasonable conclusion is that there are meaningful differences between different types of wine, but the differences between different "qualities" of the same type of wine are largely attributable to presentation and expectation, and not to the wine itself.

Likewise for audio. Most of the distinctions people claim to hear in DACs, amplifiers, preamps, CD players, or other things that measure very uniformly, are due to expectation and presentation. In order to control for those other senses overriding our hearing, we need to test those devices in a blind/controlled manner.
 
Most of the distinctions people claim to hear in DACs, amplifiers, preamps, CD players, or other things that measure very uniformly, are due to expectation and presentation. In order to control for those other senses overriding our hearing, we need to test those devices in a blind/controlled manner.

What I am interested in knowing is if the sighted bias is universal. If you told someone that silver wire has lower resistance than gold plated copper, but made no presentation of expected outcome or predicted differences, and you had someone listen, sighted, to the two cables, would there universally be an impression that silver is brighter and cleaner and gold is warmer? Or would you only be presenting a difference with each individual coming up with a different perception of the difference (which is all based upon the sight as opposed to the actual measured reproduction).
 
What I am interested in knowing is if the sighted bias is universal.
No. But perhaps nearly universal, especially among audiophiles who listen carefully and try to hear subtle details or differences.

Sighted tests are almost always suspect and doing the same test blind removes the bias and improves the test/experiment. If you've got a gross or obvious issue, like no sound out of the left speaker, there's no need for blind testing. But the problem is, people frequently think the issue (or difference) is obvious, until the test is repeated blind.

I've been around long enough to be skeptical of my own hearing. I used to think that some people had "golden ears" but most of those guys "don't believe in" blind listening tests and a lot of them are old guys like me, likely with some normal age-related hearing loss.

I also used to think I had better than average hearing but I was just a more critical (picky) listener than everybody I knew.

There are trained listeners (including Amir) who can hear things that most of us wouldn't notice, but there are still limits to human hearing. I've tried to avoid training myself to hear defects that aren't bothering me now! I'm not in the music or audio business and I just want to enjoy the music!

And even Amir admits to fooling himself in sighted listening tests.

If you told someone that silver wire has lower resistance than gold plated copper, but made no presentation of expected outcome or predicted differences,
The average person would give you a blank look. The average audiophile would say, Oh yeah!!! :D :D :D
 
What I am interested in knowing is if the sighted bias is universal. If you told someone that silver wire has lower resistance than gold plated copper, but made no presentation of expected outcome or predicted differences, and you had someone listen, sighted, to the two cables, would there universally be an impression that silver is brighter and cleaner and gold is warmer? Or would you only be presenting a difference with each individual coming up with a different perception of the difference (which is all based upon the sight as opposed to the actual measured reproduction).
I think that would depend on what preconceptions you have about the impact lower resistance might have on sound.
 
I think that would depend on what preconceptions you have about the impact lower resistance might have on sound.

So the question is what preconceptions exist out there? Is it learned or somehow innate?

For example, I would believe that it’s largely innate that people would assume a heavy amplifier is better than a light one. This is opposite of a laptop or tablet…. Just my belief, but something that might be interesting for a college psychology student to test (since they have to do random tests to learn stats, etc.)
 
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So the question is what preconceptions exist out there? Is it learned or somehow innate?

For example, I would believe that it’s largely innate that people would assume a heavy amplifier is better than a light one. This is opposite of a laptop or tablet…. Just my belief, but something that might be interesting for a college psychology student to test (since they have to do random tests to learn stats, etc.)
I don't see how that could possibly be innate. We can't have innate preconceptions about electrical resistance or sound reproduction - for most of human history we were completely unaware of the existence of electricity and did not have any method of sound reproduction.

Likewise I don't see any reasonable mechanism by which we could have an innate preference for heavier products because it conveys "quality". That's certainly a learned association.
 
I’ve been engaging in some discussions similar to this one recently, and one of the things that has stoked a feeling of intense discontent and frustration is the incredibly lopsided ratio between the quantity of verbiage and the word count devoted to the heated question of sighted vs. blind listening (HUGE!), vs. the quantity of actually conducting blind tests (SEEMINGLY ITTY BITTY AND PRETTY RARE!).

There’s a discussion of USB audio interconnects over at the Steve Hoffman Audio Hardware forum where a couple of guys are claiming stuff like a drastically lowered noise floor and stunning improvements in sound quality due to digital cable “upgrades.” It’s maddening to contrast these confident pronouncements (similar to hundreds of thousands of audiophile words devoted to related claims) with my firm conviction that these distinctive improvements would disappear in an blind test involving properly made and spec’d cables. But even though I too am armed with a mountain of words, in my case words that criticize and cast doubt on subjective/sighted testing, the stockpile of actual blind tests seemed sadly thin on the ground.

We do seem to have measurements sorted. But is it fair to say that the inclination to talk *a lot* about the awesomeness of blind testing while actually *doing very little* blind testing is a failure and weakness of the objective cause?
 
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We do seem to have measurements sorted. But is it fair to say that the inclination to talk *a lot* about the awesomeness of blind testing while actually *doing very little* blind testing is a failure and weakness of the objective cause?

I get what you are saying, but in some ways it would be like having taste tests between forks, if there was a world where fork snake oil existed.

I spent some time putting one together for myself, and learned enough that I don't know if I'll ever do another.

There is a gap in education about the importance of controls when doing these tests, more than a gap in tests that show the same thing. Most in that world will not believe any of it until they either learn a lot more or do it for themselves anyway.

They need to know that their claims really do go against the general body of knowledge, so exceptional evidence is going to be required. Since they exist in such an echo chamber where it's just common knowledge that the color of your wire impacts sound quality, the idea that they need to actually provide evidence (whatever that is) is completely foreign.
 
We do seem to have measurements sorted. But is it fair to say that the inclination to talk *a lot* about the awesomeness of blind testing while actually *doing very little* blind testing is a failure and weakness of the objective cause?
An excellent comment I thought.

Rather well timed, AP Mastering in YouTube today published a follow up video to one where he asked his audience to guess how many times he switched (switching was seamless) between DAC only output and DAC loop back through an ADC and back through DAC. The poll results were statistically meaningful!

YouTube link

I think it would help educate those in the ‘echo chamber’ if there was more content and studies like this.

Perhaps someone with the requisite skills and equipment could perform a similar test for the op-amp rolling crowd.
 
I’ve been engaging in some discussions similar to this one recently, and one of the things that has stoked a feeling of intense discontent and frustration is the incredibly lopsided ratio between the quantity of verbiage and the word count devoted to the heated question of sighted vs. blind listening (HUGE!), vs. the quantity of actually conducting blind tests (SEEMINGLY ITTY BITTY AND PRETTY RARE!).

There’s a discussion of USB audio interconnects over at the Steve Hoffman Audio Hardware forum where a couple of guys are claiming stuff like a drastically lowered noise floor and stunning improvements in sound quality due to digital cable “upgrades.” It’s maddening to contrast these confident pronouncements (similar to hundreds of thousands of audiophile words devoted to related claims) with my firm conviction that these distinctive improvements would disappear in an blind test involving properly made and spec’d cables. But even though I too am armed with a mountain of words, in my case words that criticize and cast doubt on subjective/sighted testing, the stockpile of actual blind tests seemed sadly thin on the ground.

We do seem to have measurements sorted. But is it fair to say that the inclination to talk *a lot* about the awesomeness of blind testing while actually *doing very little* blind testing is a failure and weakness of the objective cause?
It's a lot of work to run a proper blind test.

Claims about noise floor don't require a blind test though. The assertion is easily testable with regular measurements and 99.9999% guaranteed to be utter bullshit.
 
An excellent comment I thought.

Rather well timed, AP Mastering in YouTube today published a follow up video to one where he asked his audience to guess how many times he switched (switching was seamless) between DAC only output and DAC loop back through an ADC and back through DAC. The poll results were statistically meaningful!

YouTube link

I think it would help educate those in the ‘echo chamber’ if there was more content and studies like this.

Perhaps someone with the requisite skills and equipment could perform a similar test for the op-amp rolling crowd.
I've posted 8th gen loopbacks. I didn't get huge response numbers. The ones I did get over a couple different audio forums indicates when people are comparing original files with 8th generation files pretty much right at 50/50. Guess I should have done it over a youtube vid. I would first have to build an audience I suppose. Comments on a uncontrolled listening oriented forum were crazy. Even when people can show themselves what they can and cannot hear many are not going to accept results.

As to the op-amp rolling, I think SIY did that for himself. He series connected op-amps to see how many he could hear. I may remember wrong, but in his case it was 6. So he decided when using only 1 there was nothing to worry about.
 
I don't see how that could possibly be innate. We can't have innate preconceptions about electrical resistance or sound reproduction - for most of human history we were completely unaware of the existence of electricity and did not have any method of sound reproduction.

Likewise I don't see any reasonable mechanism by which we could have an innate preference for heavier products because it conveys "quality". That's certainly a learned association.
 
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