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$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

bo_knows

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Got it, thanks. I hear very mixed reviews on those Personas, hence reason not on my short list. And if you weren’t powering those Salon 2s with a “nuclear flux capacitor” (being silly, aka monster amp), I am sure you weren’t hearing them to their full potential
The Nebraska demo room was treated but very small in dimensions (almost identical to mine 13WX15LX10H). I think Persona was powered by an Anthem integrated with Dirac calibration and Revel was powered by some Mark Levinson amp (my memory is fading quickly here). Persona had a very tight bass but Revel went deeper. The sheer amount of mid to high-frequency details on Persona 5F was almost overwhelming ( I guess they are made to impress in a quick demo but in a long-running listening session, for me, there would be some listening fatigue). I felt when listening to Revel's due to their hi-mounted tweeter, the sound changed when I was sitting or squatting up. If I had to choose between those two, I would pick Salon 2. To be fair, it wasn't an apple-for-apple comparison due to the smaller size of Person 5F.
 
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Bugal1998

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Wow! :oops: Now that is an end game system, well done sir, I am drooling
Thank you!

You're doing your homework, and you have a generous budget, so I have no doubt you'll end up with an equal/superior system suited to your preferences.

FWIW, my best investment was hiring a reputable acoustician for the project (I spoke with at least half a dozen before hiring one). There's a zero percent chance that using the same gear I would have achieved the same system performance on my own.
 
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Mr. Widget

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How is Rebel able to manufacture at least 14 additional Salon 2 units recently (with more coming later December) if they don’t have the full driver compliment?

As to your comment on the year wait for replacement tweeters, that is certainly troublesome. But if that occurred past couple years, likely can chalk that up to the insane supply chain issues we have all been experiencing and hope that improves. To say, hoping this is not a new normal for Hartman/Revel! If yes, then I question buying anything at all from the Harman group, even current models … I have often wondered if the Samsung acquisition would be the beginning of the end for Harman as we know them today :(
The not having a full compliment of drivers was referring to the previous post claiming that Revel had repair parts for the original and long out of production Salons. My point was that they may have a few tweeters, mids, or woofers, but following Murphy's Law, the driver you blow will likely not be the drivers they still have on the shelf.

Regarding supply chains etc., the year we waited for our client's replacement tweeter was long before the current situation. It was about ten years ago, but it left an impression.
 
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MKR

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I only found one review, on 6moons, translated from Polish. It's very positive but without measurements doesn't mean much.

I asked a dealer friend who sold them in the past, and he said they can play loudly (large speakers with large 8" drivers, plus 10" bass) and they are not fussy with the room. He also said they were the most impressive speakers he ever sold.
Again, I am sure they are great speakers, but without more reviews and measurements no way to know for certain. And they are less fussy about room placement due to the cardioid dispersion, a good thing.

As to your dealer friend, “most impressive” compared to what?

Anyway, your ears are the ultimate judge, regardless of what I or others say. If you get a chance to audition the Amphions, I am sure the community here (and myself) would love to hear your feedback. Maybe they truly are endgame, we just don’t know it yet ;)
 
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MKR

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The Nebraska demo room was treated but very small in dimensions (almost identical to mine 13WX15LX10H). I think Persona was powered by an Anthem integrated with Dirac calibration and Revel was powered by some Mark Levinson amp (my memory is fading quickly here). Persona had a very tight bass but Revel went deeper. The sheer amount of mid to high-frequency details on Persona 5F was almost overwhelming ( I guess they are made to impress in a quick demo but in a long-running listening session, for me, there would be some listening fatigue). I felt when listening to Revel's due to their hi-mounted tweeter, the sound changed when I was sitting or squatting up. If I had to choose between those two, I would pick Salon 2. To be fair, it wasn't an apple-for-apple comparison due to the smaller size of Person 5F.
Great feedback, thank you. Your comments match exactly what I have read on the Personas, HF tilted up and fatiguing … definitely not for me.
 
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MKR

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The not having a full compliment of drivers was referring to the previous post claiming that Revel had repair parts for the original and long out of production Salons. My point was that they may have a few tweeters, mids, or woofers, but following Murphy's Law, the driver you blow will likely not be the drivers they still have on the shelf.

Regarding supply chains etc., the year we waited for our client's replacement tweeter was long before the current situation. It was about ten years ago, but it left an impression.
Clear, thank you sir … appreciate the additional elaboration
 

symphara

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As to your dealer friend, “most impressive” compared to what?
He didn't qualify, he just said they were the best he sold. He sells a lot of stuff - B&W, Aurum, PSB, Elipson, Tangent, Amphion that's what I noticed in the showroom last time I was there but I wasn't really there to browse.

Unfortunately it seems almost impossible to get an audition for the Kryptons, nobody has them.

Might get one for some big Canton, like the reference 3k.
 
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HairyEars

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Genelec pro products are broken into two lines: aluminum molded and MDF boxes. I personally find the MDF more musical, and thus enjoyable. For a room your size and listening distance either 1237, 1238DF + 7380 or a 1238A would be idle. If your room is well treated, you’ll become addicted to the sound in no time. It’s truly delicious.

If your room is already well treated, I would go with the 1238A + 7380 x 2, which is around $27,000. Add a GLM kit, a volume control and two custom stands, and you’re well under $30,000.

If your room isn’t well treated, I’d go with 1238DF + 2 x 7380, which is $23,500 and budget $5,000 to treat the room.
 

AudioJester

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Genelec pro products are broken into two lines: aluminum molded and MDF boxes. I personally find the MDF more musical, and thus enjoyable. For a room your size and listening distance either 1237, 1238DF + 7380 or a 1238A would be idle. If your room is well treated, you’ll become addicted to the sound in no time. It’s truly delicious.

If your room is already well treated, I would go with the 1238A + 7380 x 2, which is around $27,000. Add a GLM kit, a volume control and two custom stands, and you’re well under $30,000.

If your room isn’t well treated, I’d go with 1238DF + 2 x 7380, which is $23,500 and budget $5,000 to treat the room.

This is why audition will be critical. In he Genelec line I find the point source line to be my personal preference if enough spl
 
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MKR

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Genelec pro products are broken into two lines: aluminum molded and MDF boxes. I personally find the MDF more musical, and thus enjoyable. For a room your size and listening distance either 1237, 1238DF + 7380 or a 1238A would be idle. If your room is well treated, you’ll become addicted to the sound in no time. It’s truly delicious.

If your room is already well treated, I would go with the 1238A + 7380 x 2, which is around $27,000. Add a GLM kit, a volume control and two custom stands, and you’re well under $30,000.

If your room isn’t well treated, I’d go with 1238DF + 2 x 7380, which is $23,500 and budget $5,000 to treat the room.
Interesting, I really hadn't considered the 1238 or 7380. More research/listing to do. My "short list" is getting longer by the day :facepalm:

Thanks for the recommend
 
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MKR

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This is why audition will be critical. In he Genelec line I find the point source line to be my personal preference if enough spl
Definitely, auditions are a must! I will be going on some audition "tours" next 2-3 months, will keep everyone posted on my impressions
 

sarumbear

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@MKR, I think you should add 8361A+7380A to your list also. :)
With subs it will go lower in frequency which I think you will like for movies.
Why go with 8361A when you have the sub? There’s no point having their bass extension when they were going to be fed by a HP filter?
 
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MKR

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Why go with 8361A when you have the sub? There’s no point having their bass extension when they were going to be fed by a HP filter?
Due to size of my room, if I go with the 8361, it will be with W371 AND additional LFE subs (W371 is not really a sub)

By the way, as good as I am sure the One series is, I am more an more leaning away from active. But still TBD, I still plan to audition before fully ruling them out
 

sarumbear

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Due to size of my room, if I go with the 8361, it will be with W371 AND additional LFE subs (W371 is not really a sub)
But why not use 8351? What’s the point of using the larger version if not it’s not going to be utilised?
 

aland

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Due to size of my room, if I go with the 8361, it will be with W371 AND additional LFE subs (W371 is not really a sub)

By the way, as good as I am sure the One series is, I am more an more leaning away from active. But still TBD, I still plan to audition before fully ruling them out
Go listen to them before stating what you will mix and match in different setups. Don’t listen to people who does not own or some have even not heard these speakers / combos.
When you go for the Genelec demos I recommend you to listen to these combinations when it comes to the ”ones”
- 8361 as a set
- 8361 with a sub(s)
- 8351 + W371

I would say that it is a waste of money to buy w371a if you are planning for subwoofers. They won’t make you any happier in a stereo-system together with subs, just more headache to get it to work properly in a room.
So listen to the systems and evaluate.

And if you find that you are missing that car audio sub-bass when listening to w371a system. Go and find a KiiThree+BXT system and listen to that as well.
 
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Bugal1998

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But why not use 8351? What’s the point of using the larger version if not it’s not going to be utilised?
I've sadly never heard any Genelec speakers except for a poorly implemented 1238 (I believe), so I can't speak to Genelec's capabilities... But, for example, the 15" driver in the M2 is a revelation for music content between 80 and ~250hz (other speakers with similar displacement offer a similar experience). It's like hearing some songs for the first time, and I don't feel like I'm wasting the 15" driver (at all!) by crossing it over to subs.

Is it possible an 8361/W371 combo with subs would represent a scenario similar to the M2 and deliver optimal performance at all frequencies?
 
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sarumbear

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I've sadly never heard any Genelec speakers except for a poorly implemented 1238 (I believe), so I can't speak to Genelec's capabilities... But, for example, the 15" driver in the M2 is a revelation for music content between 80 and ~250hz (other speakers with similar displacement offer a similar experience). It's like hearing some songs for the first time, and I don't feel like I'm wasting the 15" driver (at all!) by crossing it over to subs.

Is it possible an 8361/W371 combo with subs would represent a scenario similar to the M2 and deliver optimal performance at all frequencies?
You are missing my point. 8351 is the smaller version of 8361. The only difference is that the latter has more bass extension and capability. If you will use the bass unit you don’t use that capability. Hence, 8361 is wasted.
 
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Bugal1998

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You are missing my point. 8351 is the smaller version of 8361. The only difference is that the latter has more bass extension and capability. If you will use the bass unit you don’t use that capability. Hence, 8361 is wasted.
Probably just my lack of Genelec specific knowledge (which I freely admit)... Does the W371 crossover at 500hz, which is the top of the frequency range listed on Genelec's website? Or at least above ~250hz? If so, and if all other aspects of the two models are truly identical, then I understand and agree with your perspective.

My concern was simply avoiding what, in my personal opinion, is a common mistake of assuming subs crossed at 80-120hz make large speakers obsolete, which I don't believe could be further from the truth when building an end game system.

FWIW, I have similar questions about the KiiThree w/BXT module; unless the BXT is crossed over at at least 200hz (preferably higher), then significant compression will remain that's (again, purely in my opinion) unbefitting an end game system.

Of course, discussing these models is all academic if MKR is leaning away from active speakers.
 
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sarumbear

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My concern was simply avoiding what, in my personal opinion, is a common mistake of assuming subs crossed at 80-120hz make large speakers obsolete, which I don't believe could be further from the truth when building an end game system.
As you said W371 is not a typical subwoofer. Genelec calls it "woofer system." Basically it is an extra woofer to extend the bottom end of 8351B. Here is the page where Genelec explains how the the models are matched.

8361A is a single speaker that is designed to work alone and delivers what is possible within the physical constrains in a single a considerably smaller enclosure.
 

Bugal1998

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As you said W371 is not a typical subwoofer. Genelec calls it "woofer system." Basically it is an extra woofer to extend the bottom end of 8351B. Here is the page where Genelec explains how the the models are matched.

8361A is a single speaker that is designed to work alone and delivers what is possible within the physical constrains in a single a considerably smaller enclosure.
Found it in a footnote... The HF rolloff of the W371 could be anywhere between 150 and 300hz depending on operating mode and in room response.

So depending on the compression results between 150 and 300hz for the 8351 and 8361, and the final configuration of the W371, they may or may not have equivalent output in the 150-300 hz range when using the W371. I would personally want to validate before opting for the smaller model.
 
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