$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[MKR]

As you said W371 is not a typical subwoofer. Genelec calls it "woofer system." Basically it is an extra woofer to extend the bottom end of 8351B. Here is the page where Genelec explains how the the models are matched.

8361A is a single speaker that is designed to work alone and delivers what is possible within the physical constrains in a single a considerably smaller enclosure.

@sarumbear Interesting discussion, appreciate the thoughts on the Genelecs. I must say I am confused … why would Genelec then even offer the 8361 if they would intend for the 8351+371 to provide equivalent performance? And I am not so sure 8361 = 8351+371. And further you are saying the 8361+371 offers no benefit vs 8361? Or maybe there is benefit but approaching diminishing returns? No doubt the 371s are ridiculously expensive.

have I misunderstood your comments?

Thanks

 

[sarumbear]

So depending on the compression results between 150 and 300hz for the 8351 and 8361, and the final configuration of the W371, they may or may not have equivalent output in the 150-300 hz range when using the W371. I would personally want to validate before opting for the smaller model.

Interesting assumption that Genelec will be suggesting and demoing a specific configuration which is three times larger but may have less SPL capacity at the 150-300Hz range.

Which part of the following charts made you worry?

8351B SAM™ Studio Monitor - Genelec.com

A revolution in three-way monitor design, the 8351B boasts a unique look, compact size and a performance that has to be heard to be believed.

www.genelec.com

8361A SAM™ Studio Monitor - Genelec.com

The flagship of The Ones range, the 8361A offers the most advanced acoustic performance of any studio monitor on the planet.

www.genelec.com

 

[sarumbear]

why would Genelec then even offer the 8361 if they would intend for the 8351+371 to provide equivalent performance?

8351B + W371 pair is three times the size (volume) of a single 8361A. That is why. They are offering a compromise with 8361A. The full/best option is the former.

 

[Bugal1998]

Interesting assumption that Genelec will be suggesting and demoing a specific configuration which is three times larger but may have less SPL capacity at the 150-300Hz range.

Which part of the following charts made you worry?

View attachment 248138

8351B SAM™ Studio Monitor - Genelec.com

A revolution in three-way monitor design, the 8351B boasts a unique look, compact size and a performance that has to be heard to be believed.

www.genelec.com

View attachment 248137

8361A SAM™ Studio Monitor - Genelec.com

The flagship of The Ones range, the 8361A offers the most advanced acoustic performance of any studio monitor on the planet.

www.genelec.com

What made me worry is the fact that those charts don’t go nearly high enough in SPL to illuminate any potential output differences between the two models (see Amir’s video How Loud is Loud for context). 85db below 500hz isn’t much output given A) the OP’s anticipated listening distance, and B) the energy distribution of most music having a strong bias to the low-end.

What would that curve look like at the 8351’s rated output of 113db? And how would it compare to the 8361 at the same output? Unless there’s more data we haven’t seen (very possible), then we have no idea based on the documentation from Genelec.

I’m not saying there’s an issue, I’m saying I haven’t seen anything to validate that there wouldn’t be an issue.

 

[aland]

W371A is mainly designed to create a flat smooth response of the bass frequencies. If you need that and your room or speaker placement does not allow it then W371A is the correct TOOL. W371A is not designed to increase the output of the 8341, 8351 or 8361 series iof monitors while you may gain that as well.
Sounds like many of normal hifi-enthusiasts get this wrong.

 

[sarumbear]

What made me worry is the fact that those charts don’t go nearly high enough in SPL to illuminate any potential output differences between the two models.

I’m not saying there’s an issue, I’m saying I haven’t seen anything to validate that there wouldn’t be an issue.

8351B woofers are almost equivalent to a single 8.5" woofer
8361A woofers are equivalent to a single 11" woofer

According to a simple piston volume vs SPL calculation the expected Xmax at 150Hz at the maximum SPL stated by Genelec is below.

8351B: 3mm @ 115dBSPL
8361A: 1.8mm @ 118dBSPL

Do you expect 8251B woofers will not be have at least 3mm excursion, knowing that almost every similar size driver will offer more.

 

[MarcT]

Just saw this, and they are within your price limit. These people make some pretty good speakers.

Summit - YG Acoustics

Summit by YG Acoustics is the flagship loudspeaker of the new Peaks Series, offering the highest level of musical performance.

www.yg-acoustics.com

 

[sarumbear]

Just saw this, and they are within your price limit. These people make some pretty good speakers.

Summit - YG Acoustics

Summit by YG Acoustics is the flagship loudspeaker of the new Peaks Series, offering the highest level of musical performance.

www.yg-acoustics.com

May I ask how you ascertained that they are “good” speakers. What is your criteria for good?

 

[srrxr71]

W371A is mainly designed to create a flat smooth response of the bass frequencies. If you need that and your room or speaker placement does not allow it then W371A is the correct TOOL. W371A is not designed to increase the output of the 8341, 8351 or 8361 series iof monitors while you may gain that as well.
Sounds like many of normal hifi-enthusiasts get this wrong.

Well let’s say as in my case 8361 + 7360 x 2 are clipping then 8361 + w371 can be a solution while also helping my midbass response get more accurate.

But yes even as I prepare for delivery on Friday i’m not expecting them to blow my mind with bass. However they will let me play louder and probably more importantly they will let me set up a house curve with some serious bass boost while I listen at more sedate levels.

 

[aland]

Well let’s say as in my case 8361 + 7360 x 2 are clipping then 8361 + w371 can be a solution while also helping my midbass response get more accurate.

But yes even as I prepare for delivery on Friday i’m not expecting them to blow my mind with bass. However they will let me play louder and probably more importantly they will let me set up a house curve with some serious bass boost while I listen at more sedate levels.

You will get less deep bass with W371A than with dual 7360s if you currently have the subs in a reasonable good room position. You will find out on Friday, good luck!

 

[sarumbear]

Well let’s say as in my case 8361 + 7360 x 2 are clipping

Please define clipping? Amplifiers clipping or drivers bottoming?

At what frequency?

Which device, 8361 or 7360?

What is the crossover frequency between the two?

 

[srrxr71]

You will get less deep bass with W371A than with dual 7360s if you currently have the subs in a reasonable good room position. You will find out on Friday, good luck!

Sure they will roll off a little higher and I understand that. (But room reinforcement will get it down to about the same)

However I had discussions with Genelec support. The gentleman assured me that clipping etc. is a lot less likely with W371.

Also if I recall correctly I think you alerted me to the fact that once w371 is installed GLM does not have a method to phase align any subs. I had previously thought I could use both w371 and a 7380 together.

In any case let’s see. I think I’ll be happier with the w371 as long as I don’t see any clipping.

I am not looking for car stereo bass but also my levels are starting to cause drama so I may just install a buttkicker to help with feel. However I want accurate bass in terms of audibility.

The extra headroom of 12” + 14” drivers would alternatively let me listen at lower levels with a bigger bass bump on my target curve. If I feel this is necessary.

I but I hear you. As I wait for them i’m setting my expectations accordingly. It will be the same sound with more headroom. Hopefully no clipping. That was the impetus for the 7380 which then changed into just doing now what I would do at some point - order the w371.

As I alluded to earlier i’m hitting the limits of the space and neighborhood at this point anyway.

However i’m also getting a ST2 Pro for when I move out of here and get a bigger space. Then I will use it to integrate 2 giant subs which will not be Genelec (too expensive).

 

[srrxr71]

Please define clipping? Amplifiers clipping or drivers bottoming?

At what frequency?

Which device, 8361 or 7360?

What is the crossover frequency between the two?

So both devices can clip. You can see it in GLM. They turn orange. Sometimes just protection but sometimes clipping.

So it’s just whatever causes the units to self protect.

My belief (sorry from very little investigation) is that the 8361 somewhere between 100-300Hz as they do so on even YouTube speaking voices.

The subs are playing below 60Hz so those could be anything under that. Maybe I need to tone down the bottom octave anyway to maintain the peace.

I saw in one of the trinnov threads that someone basically did that anyway. Just rolled off under 30Hz. That may anyway be a good compromise for my situation and maybe even the right thing for headroom and not rattling walls for my own audibility.

 

[sarumbear]

So both devices can clip. You can see it in GLM. They turn orange. Sometimes just protection but sometimes clipping.

So it’s just whatever causes the units to self protect.

Then it’s amplifier clipping. Have you measured the average SPL levels when that happens? Maybe you require levels outside the range that’s offered by the One system? They are not meant for very high SPL listening or large rooms.

 

[srrxr71]

Then it’s amplifier clipping. Have you measured the average SPL levels when that happens? Maybe you require levels outside the range that’s offered by the One system?

Maybe but you can’t say that until you try the w371. So that’s why the w371 is on a train apparently and I scheduled my delivery for Friday.


In any case if you want higher levels just get the 8361. It’s only $1k more. You get a lot more in materials at least. Probably more headroom even with w371 taking some of the load.

The graphs don’t show the output at 105dB. They show 90dB. Keep that in mind. Of course there’s no difference at 90dB.

I’ll admit I do listen loud. I can get into 105dB on certain songs in my listening position. What’s funny is that if I go to the sink it’s not that loud. Just maybe 15 feet away. So it must be the bass that is causing complaints.

I would be happy just so that the 100-300 Hz issue is solved first. Then bass I will deal with after I move.

If it turns out the Ones even with w371 clip on vocals then I guess I’ll learn to understand that lower my levels. I like the Ones enough to work with them.

 

[sarumbear]

Maybe but you can’t say that until you try the w371.

Of course I can! Anyone with the data can. There’s nothing magical in calculating what is required as long you have the specifications of the units used and had set the requirements.

 

[aland]

Sure they will roll off a little higher and I understand that.

However I had discussions with Genelec support. The gentleman assured me that clipping etc. is a lot less likely with W371.

Also if I recall correctly I think you alerted me to the fact that once w371 is installed GLM does not have a method to phase align any subs. I had previously thought I could use both w371 and a 7380 together.

In any case let’s see. I think I’ll be happier with the w371 as long as I don’t see any clipping.

I am not looking for car stereo bass but also my levels are starting to cause drama so I may just install a buttkicker to help with feel. However I want accurate bass in terms of audibility.

The extra headroom of 12” + 14” drivers would alternatively let me listen at lower levels with a bigger bass bump on my target curve. If I feel this is necessary.

I but I hear you. As I wait for them i’m setting my expectations accordingly. It will be the same sound with more headroom. Hopefully no clipping. That was the impetus for the 7380 which then changed into just doing now what I would do at some point - order the w371.

As I alluded to earlier i’m hitting the limits of the space and neighborhood at this point anyway.

However i’m also getting a ST2 Pro for when I move out of here and get a bigger space. Then I will use it to integrate 2 giant subs which will not be Genelec (too expensive).

I assume that your listening curve is very bass heavy and that's why your 7360s are clipping. You have to play really loud to get 7360s to clip with a quite flat room response. I can't imagine a neighbor that would accept that.
I agree with the Genelec support that it will be difficult to get the w371 to clip. But they are not talking about a bass heavy listening curve.

Anyway, I don't want to frighten you. Keep calm and find out yourself during the weekend.

You should think twice about w371s if you are adding a Trinnov to add subwoofers. The Trinnov itself does a lot of magic what the w371 will do when it comes to the bass response. 8361's together with Trinnov and subwoofers would almost get you there (without the woofer towers). Furthermore you have to feed all speakers from the Trinnov with analog signal since not many giant subs accept a digital signal. This mean an extra AD/DA conversion for the Genelec system.

But it might work. It will be just quite an expensive system to test.

 

[srrxr71]

I assume that your listening curve is very bass heavy and that's why your 7360s are clipping. You have to play really loud to get 7360s to clip with a quite flat room response. I can't imagine a neighbor that would accept that.
I agree with the Genelec support that it will be difficult to get the w371 to clip. But they are not talking about a bass heavy listening curve.

Anyway, I don't want to frighten you. Keep calm and find out yourself during the weekend.

You should think twice about w371s if you are adding a Trinnov to add subwoofers. The Trinnov itself does a lot of magic what the w371 will do when it comes to the bass response. 8361's together with Trinnov and subwoofers would almost get you there (without the woofer towers). Furthermore you have to feed all speakers from the Trinnov with analog signal since not many giant subs accept a digital signal. This mean an extra AD/DA conversion for the Genelec system.

But it might work. It will be just quite an expensive system to test.

I have the maximum +3dB shelf 0-200Hz. You know it’s what GLM allows.

Let’s be honest the 7360 is kind of a toy. Also this is house but with neighbor houses about 5 feet away.

Funny it was your comments that drove me to w371 at this point. I was getting a 7380 which I cancelled to get these. Because no point getting a 7380 now if w371 is the end game. You saved me some run around honestly.

Yes there was a pair in USA ready to go and I got them.

The trinnov may do a lot but it won’t fix the silly 60-300Hz issues I have in my room and may have in any future room. I was going to get the w371 at some point since end game is the goal. Might as well get it now.

What I would do is keep everything digital for the Genelec towers but throw 2 x topping d10b for each future sub. That just makes sense.

 

[TimW]

Just saw this, and they are within your price limit. These people make some pretty good speakers.

Summit - YG Acoustics

Summit by YG Acoustics is the flagship loudspeaker of the new Peaks Series, offering the highest level of musical performance.

www.yg-acoustics.com

At the stereo store I work at occasionally, we once took in a used pair of YG Acoustics Carmel speakers. They were heavy aluminum things with what looked like high end drivers and crossover components. There was virtually no damping material inside the cabinet though. From what I remember, they were lacking in bass extension and overall the sound wasn't great. They still sold for a few grand because they are "high end".

 

[aland]

I have the maximum +3dB shelf 0-200Hz. You know it’s what GLM allows.

Let’s be honest the 7360 is kind of a toy. Also this is house but with neighbor houses about 5 feet away.

Funny it was your comments that drove me to w371 at this point. I was getting a 7380 which I cancelled to get these.

If I recall I told you 2-3 times that the W371s has to be auditioned before buying. I mainly informed you that the Genelec subwoofers are not easy to integrate in GLM with a woofer-system. And furthermore I explained that the woofer-towers produce a very clean and fast bass response. I have not said that you should buy these.
Anyway, great speakers!

Regarding the shelving it does not say that much if you have increased the subwoofer levels? Or are they untouched from the GLM calibration?