Harbeth Monitor 30 Speaker Review

[Willem]

I know my maths. This is how they were designed. There is also a reference distance. Will try to look it up, plus the designer's views on this.

 

[YSDR]

Well, if the drivers are aligned to get the best phase matching halfway between the drivers, then we get better results if we are further away from the speakers but the listening height remains the same (halfway between the drivers).
If the speaker are aligned to one driver's axis then we getting different results at the same listening height if we go further or closer to the speaker than intended. This latter method requires a specific listening height at every listening distance (or vice versa) to get the best out of the speaker.
I'm wondering how Harbeth makes their speakers.

 

[tuga]

Have you had a look at Stereophile's measurements?

The speaker's vertical dispersion is shown in fig.5. Suckouts in the crossover region occur more than 10° above and 5° below the tweeter axis, but there is slightly more mid-treble energy 5–10° above the tweeter axis. This speaker needs to be used with stands that place the tweeter axis just below the level of a seated listener's ears, to get the most neutral treble balance.

https://www.stereophile.com/content...-anniversary-edition-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[YSDR]

Have you had a look at Stereophile's measurements?

The speaker's vertical dispersion is shown in fig.5. Suckouts in the crossover region occur more than 10° above and 5° below the tweeter axis, but there is slightly more mid-treble energy 5–10° above the tweeter axis. This speaker needs to be used with stands that place the tweeter axis just below the level of a seated listener's ears, to get the most neutral treble balance.

https://www.stereophile.com/content...-anniversary-edition-loudspeaker-measurements

Thanks! That's what I said. Stereophile said that tweeter needs to be lower relative to the listener's ears, but if we want to maintain that optimal performance and we going further away, the listener needs to be even higher relative to the tweeter because the main lobe is tilted upwards slightly. And wonderning why the lobe is tilted upwards? Because Harbeth aligned the drivers to one driver's (tweeter) axis at a specific distance and not to halfway between the drivers.

 

[maty]

Harbeth P3ESR
[Polish] https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/kolumny-glosnikowe/3210-harbeth-p3esr

https://translate.google.es/transla.../stereo/kolumny-glosnikowe/3210-harbeth-p3esr
https://www.translatetheweb.com/?re.../stereo/kolumny-glosnikowe/3210-harbeth-p3esr

 

[maty]

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/181175/harbeth-and-dayens-a-perfect-match

Crossover

Resized, rotated, optimized

 

[hvbias]

I wouldn't say so, not the design.
The BBC started their research a long time ago but multiple tests and prototypes were done before the first ideas of what seemed to be important emerged and then designs focused on achieving the goal.
One of the key things was that paper cones couldn't be good enough but alternatives were a long time coming and manufacturing techniques were limiting, early vacuum formed plastic cones were thin where they ideally should have been thick and vice versa because of the manufacturing process. The first fruits of their work started to be available outside the BBC in the 1970s and have been developed ever since. The plastic, in particular, is more suitable today than the early bextrene (which is still pretty good IME) and people can afford to injection mould it so the cones behave much better and are more consistent.
Sound is still the same thing today as it was 70 years ago but manufacturing techniques, materials and analysis methods are much more readily available to far more people and much cheaper.
Apart from the out of control deep bass on the bigger models I have found the BBC derived speakers I have heard and owned to sound extremely realistic, FWIW.

Interesting comment Frank. I have SHL5 and I find they sound pretty good as well, not quite there in the realism department compared to my rebuilt Quad ESL57 but still pretty damn good.

Of course I bought the Harbeths before joining ASR but I still enjoy them a tremendous amount. These days my interest is in speakers like Kii Three and D&D 8c.

 

[mmuetst]

Nice review, but I still miss the last part:
"No time or setup yet for listening tests. Will do some and report back later"
How does it sound to your trained ears?

 

[amadeuswus]

Nice review, but I still miss the last part:
"No time or setup yet for listening tests. Will do some and report back later"
How does it sound to your trained ears?

This might be the followup post from Amirm you were missing:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...r-30-speaker-review.11108/page-15#post-315521

 

[mmuetst]

This might be the followup post from Amirm you were missing:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...r-30-speaker-review.11108/page-15#post-315521

Thanks for that link. I'am writing a post on a dutch forum about these BBC like monitors (sorry it is in Dutch) now I have a pair of original LS3/5a 15 ohm Rogers. I was interested in the listening experience. I understand it won't get a recommendation because of its price.

 

[Willem]

I own the updated and quite superior 11 Ohm Rogers LS3/5a, but also its distant descendant, the Harbeth P3ESR. At the time the LS3/5a was a very good mini monitor, and for many years I rather enjoyed it as a desktop speaker, but the modern Harbeth is clearly far better, not surprisingly. Happy to read your post when you are done.

 

[mmuetst]

I had good memories for the Rogers LS3/5a when I worked as a sound engineer at the local radio station in the Dutch town of Zwolle.
Always wanted to own a pair of these LS3/5a for myself. Prices go nuts for these loudspeakers. I never had the chance to listen to the Harbeth P3ESR or bigger speakers, so I cannot confirm or denied your opinion.
The link to the Dutch audio forum: Info about BBC monitors

 

[ahofer]

I keep hoping a somewhat newer Harbeth gets reviewed.

 

[DSJR]

There used to be plenty of sites where Harbeths were objectively tested, but the decision was apparenty made that any interested reviewers need to either visit the factory or at at the very least (I think), have very good grounding as to what the brand is all about and how it goes about it's job.

As for LS3/5A's? The originals varies a bit (the KEF main driver was a difficult one) but many seemed to end up with the classic 'batman' response mentioned here so often! Perfect for distortion and hiss reproduction in an OB van, but to me, always rather charmless in my experience with them at home.

 

[iwantobelieve]

I might be wrong, but aren't the Monitor 30 series the only Harbeths which don't have the thin-walled approach? They're a thicker walled/braced design instead, aren't they?

I must say, I do enjoy my Compact 7 ES-3 in actual listening, regardless of how they measure. They grow on you and they are wonderful speaker for extended listening. I've found they need a clean source and as much good, clean power as you can throw at them, though.

Compared to various Meridian DSPs I have owned, which are very likely more neutral, they're a more 'comfortable' listen, but actually not boring, just different. I don't notice so much of a difference in tonal balance as I do a lack of full-range bass (of course, they are bookshelf speakers) and a comparative lack of dynamics - you often feel you need to turn them up a bit more to get them to really sing.

Both these impressions are only comparatively speaking though, once your ear/brain adjusts to the sound over a week or two, they're very satisfying in their own right. They have a certain charm I find appealing.

Anecdotally, the dealer where I demo'd, then bought them, apparently once had John Williams (the composer) in buying speakers. The dealer in question has very high end brands in store, yet Mr Williams chose the Harbeth Super HL5, apparently. Not that that tells you anything other than he enjoyed the sound more, I suspect.

 

[DSJR]

My LS5/9's had a stout box but I have to admit I never measured the thickness of the panels. The M30 is identical size but maybe not subjectively as heavy, so I really cannot say. Birch ply is expensive and Alan S told a tale about his moaning cabinet makers, so no idea regarding the current 30's. For ten years or more I much preferred the M30 models to the C7-ES3 and then a few months back I got to hear the 7-XD, which now sounds to me exactly like an SHL5+ (XD or otherwise) in miniature, the 30.2-XD to me now sounds a but 'tubby' which isn't a comment I'd have made a year or more back.

Not really discussed here, but room construction can make or break certain speakers in the bass as well as the size and acoustic issues resulting from that. I couldn't stand your C7-ES3's in a UK concrete floor brick and plaster kind of room, but they sold like hotcakes in other markets with warmer climes (10 degrees makes quite a difference to perceived bass I still feel) and maybe timber framed room construction which can seemingly absorb bass a bit. Never a complaint about them either...

Just to add that Harbeth aren't a 'me too BBC derived' speaker maker. Every single thing in the designs for good or ill has been worked on and properly catalogued and the designer is extremely proud of this. Like other professionals during their lives, he's still developing his craft and it seems now has a Klippel system, which should be interesting in a few years when the current revised 'XD' range becomes due for a full re-assessment. The Klippel thing was let slip as he was looking for an amp to use to drive test speakers. Amir and Erin may well confirm, but there's a list of recommended models which aren't expensive but which claim to do the job with as little distortion and 'fuss' as possible. I mention this going back half a century nearly to a controversial UK semi-omni speaker with parallelled three-way working and a 3 ohm impedance dip over the midrange. The amp used to do the testing ultimately couldn't drive the load properly and it skewed the results...

 

[iwantobelieve]

My LS5/9's had a stout box but I have to admit I never measured the thickness of the panels. The M30 is identical size but maybe not subjectively as heavy, so I really cannot say. Birch ply is expensive and Alan S told a tale about his moaning cabinet makers, so no idea regarding the current 30's. For ten years or more I much preferred the M30 models to the C7-ES3 and then a few months back I got to hear the 7-XD, which now sounds to me exactly like an SHL5+ (XD or otherwise) in miniature, the 30.2-XD to me now sounds a but 'tubby' which isn't a comment I'd have made a year or more back.

That's interesting, I haven't heard the XD-line yet - if the 7XD now sounds like the SHL5+ that's quite an achievement. I had the option of the C7ES-3 or SHL5+ when I bought, but there was something I just preferred about the former - the SHL5+ was more neutral, but the C7 were more fun/involving, very likely due to a slight imperfection in frequency balance I found appealing. They XD series have almost doubled in price since the last iterations and I think they are now overpriced, frankly.

Not really discussed here, but room construction can make or break certain speakers in the bass as well as the size and acoustic issues resulting from that. I couldn't stand your C7-ES3's in a UK concrete floor brick and plaster kind of room, but they sold like hotcakes in other markets with warmer climes (10 degrees makes quite a difference to perceived bass I still feel) and maybe timber framed room construction which can seemingly absorb bass a bit. Never a complaint about them either...

Definitely, room size, layout and construction impacts speaker performance hugely, which is why measurements can only tell you so much before you need to home-demo a pair in your own space. My Harbeths have done well on wood and concrete underfloors and fine with plastered walls as long as the room is furnished and/or carpeted. I do use some GIK panels in corners to absorb bass and on side first reflection points, though. I actually prefer traditional U.S. timber frame/clad construction myself also, though. I think you can adapt speakers to most rooms, if you're willing to experiment with different positioning, furnishing, a few treatments... but that does depend on how much you want to live around the hi-fi and how flexible the living arrangements are.

Just to add that Harbeth aren't a 'me too BBC derived' speaker maker. Every single thing in the designs for good or ill has been worked on and properly catalogued and the designer is extremely proud of this. Like other professionals during their lives, he's still developing his craft and it seems now has a Klippel system, which should be interesting in a few years when the current revised 'XD' range becomes due for a full re-assessment. The Klippel thing was let slip as he was looking for an amp to use to drive test speakers. Amir and Erin may well confirm, but there's a list of recommended models which aren't expensive but which claim to do the job with as little distortion and 'fuss' as possible. I mention this going back half a century nearly to a controversial UK semi-omni speaker with parallelled three-way working and a 3 ohm impedance dip over the midrange. The amp used to do the testing ultimately couldn't drive the load properly and it skewed the results...

I do have respect for AS, and my perception is the same as yours about his dedication to his craft. RADIAL/2 cone material is based on proper R&D also. Interesting he has a Klippel now; did he use this in the R&D of the XD-line? Perhaps that might account for the improvements which jump the speaker up a place in the former range? I know he started using computer modelling a few years ago and said it's what allowed him to hit on a new crossover design for the previous iterations which jumped performance a few notches.

 

[Frank Dernie]

They XD series have almost doubled in price since the last iterations and I think they are now overpriced, frankly.

I think he has probably been encouraged by the Asian market to put prices up. I certainly know one other maker who was told by his Asian importer that the problem was the speakers were too inexpensive to be taken seriously by his higher end customers.
Some special models with heavily marketed mods that made no difference were made at ~10x the price for this market and sold better...

 

[Willem]

US prices are also significantly higher than EU/UK prices. I suppose this logic is precisely what motivated the US importer: a higher price is perceived to reflect a superior product, and the US probably has more rich people willing to fall for that illusion.

 

[sergeauckland]

US prices are also significantly higher than EU/UK prices. I suppose this logic is precisely what motivated the US importer: a higher price is perceived to reflect a superior product, and the US probably has more rich people willing to fall for that illusion.

I think that illusion is common everywhere. US-made products are a lot more expensive in the UK than they are at home, and by far more than could be accounted for just by transport, importation and our 20% VAT.

S.