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Harbeth Monitor 30 Speaker Review

b1daly

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If you haven't done so, you need to read my book. I just dipped into this thread after a long absence and this popped up. The resolution of your dilemma is that listeners in these tests show more evidence of responding negatively to flaws, than responding positively to virtues. As you correctly point out, the listeners have no knowledge of how a recording "should" sound. But, it turns out that most listeners have an instinct about recognizing how a recording "should not" sound - responding to the characteristics of reproduced sound that are not "normal" for live sounds.

In the multiple-comparison tests I started in 1966 at the NRCC and that have continued since at Harman (A vs B vs C vs D, not just A vs B) it is easy to recognize and separate the timbral characters of different loudspeakers as distinct from the common factor, the recording, whatever it is. This is why the most revealing program material exhibits wide bandwidth and a dense spectrum (complex instrumentation vs. simplicity; wide bandwidth vs simple spectra like voice or solo instruments).

So, as I say in the book, evidence is that listeners tell us that the highest rated loudspeaker is the least flawed, not the most virtuous, although that is precisely what is meant. Looking at decades of listener response sheets yields enormous volumes of critical comments, some quite colorful, and slim volumes of compliments, mostly versions of "sounds good". Of course subjective reviewers have added to the verbiage with terms that often are meaningless, but poetic. "High resolution" loudspeakers turn out to be the ones with the fewest timbral distractions - it is not an independent variable.

Further analysis showed that the dominant flaw has been resonances, which alter the timbral signature of whatever sound is being reproduced.

The Harman listener training (which you can download and experience yourself) has ONLY to do with recognizing and describing resonances so that useful information can be fed back to the designers, helping them to find and fix audible problems. So, if there is a bias introduced by such training, it is that those trained listeners are very adept at hearing and describing loudspeakers that are not timbrally neutral. Is this a problem? I think not.

Hi Floyd, thanks for your comment. I just ordered your book, I've been meaning to read it for months.

I think the issue of why people prefer "neutral" speakers is pretty strange, or how it is they can identify flaws in speaker reproduction, without having access some kind of original reference.

Three possibilities come to mind:

1- The reference point is the human voice, we have an innate perspective on how it should sound, and can recognize deviations.
2- The reference point is the body of recorded music with which we have cultural familiarity.
3- The reference point is that recording engineers/producers have an innate sense of what sounds good and the ability to craft a signal that sounds the best when played on a neutral system.

I'm a producer/musician/engineer and have worked on many recordings over the years (nothing famous). There is a long, painful, learning curve on crafting mixes that "translate" well. I've gotten much better at this, and the improvement has both conscious and unconscious elements.

It's a very bizarre experience to be in the studio and compare your mix to a famous mix that you know sounds killer everywhere. Both famous mix and your mix sound great on the studio monitors: but with yours it only sounds great on the studio monitors!

I experience it as having a sense of "how something should sound." The first half of the battle is getting it that way on the local monitors, the second is getting it to translate. I sometimes think that mixers, the best of them anyway, gain a collective sense of how to make mixes that translate well, based on the world of playback systems that are out there. So the goal of the mix is a kind of "meta object", a reference point that is not dependent on any particular playback system.

One of the main elements of getting a mix that translates well is to make sure the resonances, especially peaks, in the mix are well controlled, which often requires extensive dynamics and equalization, and dynamic equalization. The problem with having a resonant peak in the frequency response is that while it may sound good on the studio monitors, which have a "high resolution" and are usually pretty well built, when the mix is played on a system that has a resonant peak in the same place as your mix does, it will "blow out" the speaker and become obnoxious.

So having a mix with a relatively smooth frequency spectrum is a safe bet. But, it does not work to put your mix on the spectrum analyzer and process it until it has some kind of desired frequency spectrum. The frequency shape of the mix cannot be separated from the musical ideas embodied in it.

So it might be that there is this kind of "ideal" version of the mix that is crafted with the goal of having a well controlled frequency response, and having this specific frequency "shape" reproduced well is required to hear the best version of the mix.

(For anyone that wonders what I'm babbling on about, the question is this. If I'm listening to a speaker that has a resonant peak at 5khz, why would this be a negative parameter? 5khz is a very common frequency to boost in mixes. So why would it be bad if the speaker introduced it versus having an engineer introduce it? How would the listener unfamiliar with the material know that the resonant peak shouldn't be there?)

So maybe when the listener hears such a mix (and the reference material I've seen you have used is pretty well recorded) the listener can tell that what they hear, while not problematic or bad necessarily, deviates from the "idealized" meta-mix intended by the artists.

One reason I was so surprised by these results is that rarely is anything in pop music, with a relatively dense mix, without extensive EQ, including the voice.

So just the idea that we know what a natural voice should sound like and can hear deviations doesn't seem sufficient to account for the listener preferences.

Of the three possible explanations I gave above, of course it could be a combination, passed through a complicated linkage of productions to playback.

i.e. The engineer knows what sounds good based on innate knowledge, so they can craft a signal that retains this essential quality despite extensive processing, and they know how to craft this in a way that passes all the way to the listener on the other end.

Anyhow, my mind has been relatively blown since coming across your research, because I do not like the way the vast majority of studio monitors sound, and I know at least some of the monitors I have used "measure well" relatively speaking. But they sound "wrong" to me in comparison to my favorite "hi-fi" speakers. The handful of studio monitors that I've used that I think "sound good" have not tended to be such great monitors!

I became frustrated by having to work for hours on end on speakers that "sound bad."

I have not been able to account for my perceptions here.
 
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napilopez

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(For anyone that wonders what I'm babbling on about, the question is this. If I'm listening to a speaker that has a resonant peak at 5khz, why would this be a negative parameter? 5khz is a very common frequency to boost in mixes. So why would it be bad if the speaker introduced it versus having an engineer introduce it? How would the listener unfamiliar with the material know that the resonant peak shouldn't be there?)

So maybe when the listener hears such a mix (and the reference material I've seen you have used is pretty well recorded) the listener can tell that what they hear, while not problematic or bad necessarily, deviates from the "idealized" meta-mix intended by the artists.

One reason I was so surprised by these results is that rarely is anything in pop music, with a relatively dense mix, without extensive EQ, including the voice.

You bring up a good point. I hope Dr Toole answers but one thing to maybe consider is that resonances tend to show up in all sorts of direction, whereas I'd expect something introduced in a mix to only really affect the forward sound. Resonances are also further exacerbated in typical listening rooms - the repetitions in reflections makes them more audible.

That said, you're also right: Good speakers become flawed by flawed recordings. The circle of confusion always rears its head. Dr Toole even mentions in his book how Barefoot speakers even have a "Yamaha NS-10 mode" to make the speakers sound more like those classic, oh-so-flawed monitors. It's inevitable that some music you like will sound worse on good speakers. However, the average should still be better.
 

pma

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Basic Speaker Measurements
Let's start with impedance and phase measurements:
View attachment 47519



View attachment 47521

I don't trust this graph much.

I think you can see very "unsmooth" impedance magnitude plot and this is IMO reflected in resonances you have measured. The cabinet is lively, as could be expected from its design school.
 

b1daly

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I think you can see very "unsmooth" impedance magnitude plot and this is IMO reflected in resonances you have measured. The cabinet is lively, as could be expected from its design school.
Is the impedance measurement affected by the acoustical properties?

In any case, I have this notion that what I dislike about modern studio monitors is the lack of cabinet resonance...I like hearing some sense of a resonating object.

But I gather that a speaker with a “lively” cabinet would not be expected to “measure well” as the cabinet resonances, aside from being deviations from a level frequent response, would cause off axis response to vary more?
 

tuga

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I agree and disagree. I disagree in the sense that the smoothness is determined by the formula, therefore the speaker is smooth enough. Even if the on-axis is coloured, there's nothing to suggest the speaker wouldn't still be preferred as often as a speaker that achieved the same score but had smoother on-axis. Though academically, I would believe that to be the case.

I think there are some discontinuities that look bad to the eye but are not that bad in practice. The on-axis curve is probably the spekaer's weakest part, but the Predicted in room curve - which almost always looks just like the early reflections curve, is actually quite smooth.

Compare with, say, the Revel Ultima Studio2:

Spin%2B-%2BRevel%2BUltima2%2BStudio2.png

Obviously better on-axis, but the directivity isn't that much better.

The on-axis response of the Revel is tilting upwards. How is this better?
The treble looks shelved up by some 2dB in that listening window plot and also in the Soundstage/NRC and in the Stereophile plots:

frequency_listeningwindow.gif


708Revfig04.jpg
 

sweetchaos

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Willem

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Anyone who also wants to read Alan Shaw's observations on these measurements will have to log in.
 

DSJR

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That's a very flattering looking set of 3/5A plots there. The one's I'm used to old and new have ups and downs in the response like a mountain range! See the Stereophile review of the Falcon LS3/5A to show what I mean.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/falcon-acoustics-ls35a-loudspeaker-measurements

I made comment about an on-screen version of different pen writing speeds on a mechanical plotter - is this akin to 'smoothing' of the on-screen readout?
 

Willem

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I really don't know what the modern imitations are or how they have been measured. What I can clearly see is that neither the original reference speakers supplied by the BBC to licensees like Harbeth, nor the two modern imitations are remotely flat, unlike the modern Harbeth P3ESR. The difference is remarkable.
 

thewas

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YSDR

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For the review, I didn't read all the comments in this thread, so I don't know if it was mentioned, but if one driver have negative polarity in a multi-way speaker, probably it's not "out of phase" as the review says but just opposite polarity compared to the connecting other driver(s). The crossover causes phase shifts and thus, depending on the slopes, you may need to connect one driver with opposite polarity to be in phase to the other driver(s).
 
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witwald

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This is a review and detailed measurements of the Harbeth Monitor 30 25th anniversary speaker. It is on kind loan from a local member. This specific speaker came out around 2002 I think and cost US$3,200 around that time. Being patterned after the famous BBC LS 5/9 speakers, I imagine the design is still the same to this day. The latest model seems to go by 30.1 designation.
In this review, does the "on axis" case correspond to measurements taken somewhere on the tweeter axis? Many of the plots contain results labelled as "On axis", but I couldn't seem to find this defined anywhere. Maybe for these tests the "on axis" case corresponds to an axis midway between the tweeter and the woofer? However, I believe that this isn't the design axis for this loudspeaker. Wouldn't the choice of what is defined to be "on axis" affect the measurements?
 

kaka89

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In this review, does the "on axis" case correspond to measurements taken somewhere on the tweeter axis? Many of the plots contain results labelled as "On axis", but I couldn't seem to find this defined anywhere. Maybe for these tests the "on axis" case corresponds to an axis midway between the tweeter and the woofer? However, I believe that this isn't the design axis for this loudspeaker. Wouldn't the choice of what is defined to be "on axis" affect the measurements?

Yes if the speaker is designed to optimize for off-axis then it will affects the "preference score" and some of the graph.
We have seen it on other speakers such as KEF.

On the other hand, the raw measurements data contains data of all axis including off-axis. So the definition of "on-axis" will only affect how we present and interrupt the data, but won't affect the data itself.
 

YSDR

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In this review, does the "on axis" case correspond to measurements taken somewhere on the tweeter axis? Many of the plots contain results labelled as "On axis", but I couldn't seem to find this defined anywhere. Maybe for these tests the "on axis" case corresponds to an axis midway between the tweeter and the woofer? However, I believe that this isn't the design axis for this loudspeaker. Wouldn't the choice of what is defined to be "on axis" affect the measurements?
Yes, the choosen axis for "on-axis" measurements can affect the end result to varying degrees depending on the speaker construction.
With 2 way (non-coaxial) speakers the optimal axis-would be halfway between the mid and tweeter drivers, this gives the best predictable response at different listening distances. IMO This is true for most 3 way speakers too if the woofer and the mid driver distance are relative short compared to the allocated wavelengths (1/4 wavelength distance or less is best).
Unfortunately, commercial manufacturers do not provide such an info for their speakers. If the tweeter axis is the intended axis of a speaker, then we need precise info about the intended listening distance too.
I'm also wondering what means "on-axis" here in ASR.
 
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thewas

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The problem with non-coxial mid-tweeters is that the main lobe (thus the line of the best addition) is often vertically tilted so that the "on-axis" position also depends on the distance and as written above unfortunately it is not very often stated in the user manuals or specs.
 

Willem

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The question is about the reference in the vertical plane. With this speaker this is at tweeter height and it should therefore be measured and listened to at tweeter height for best result as designed.
 

YSDR

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The question is about the reference in the vertical plane. With this speaker this is at tweeter height and it should therefore be measured and listened to at tweeter height for best result as designed.
Okay, if the main axis is at tweeter height at 1 meter distance, then the optimal listening height would be not on the tweeter axis at 2 meter distance (the distances is just example), because the speaker consists more, vertically aligned drivers, then we have to take into account not just the tweeter but the tweeter relative to the other driver(s). This is basic trigonometry.
 
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