What speaker brands would you consider better than Revel?

[andreasmaaan]

Thanks a lot for your detailed write up! I am now leaning towards minidsp 2x4HD. But there are two versions 2x4 and 2x4HD. The difference is Toslink connectivity. Am not sure if I would need that.

FYI, there are actually a couple of other differences:

• 2x4HD adds not only SPDIF (toslink) inputs, but also USB digital audio in (the 2x4 only accepts analogue audio in via RCA).
• 2x4HD uses a different DSP chip and ADCs/DACs, which perform slightly better than the all-in-one ADC/DSP/DAC in the 2x4 (not that I would suggest these performance differences would be likely to be audible).
• The 2x4's max. input can be toggled between 0.9V RMS and 2V RMS, while the 2x4HD's can be toggled between 2V RMS and 4V RMS.
• The 2x4 has a max. output of 0.9V RMS vs the 2x4HD's max. output of 2V RMS.

There are a couple of other smaller differences, too, but those are the important ones IMO.

 

[Sprint]

FYI, there are actually a couple of other differences:

• 2x4HD adds not only SPDIF (toslink) inputs, but also USB digital audio in (the 2x4 only accepts analogue audio in via RCA).
• 2x4HD uses a different DSP chip and ADCs/DACs, which perform slightly better than the all-in-one ADC/DSP/DAC in the 2x4 (not that I would suggest these performance differences would be likely to be audible).
• The 2x4's max. input can be toggled between 0.9V RMS and 2V RMS, while the 2x4HD's can be toggled between 2V RMS and 4V RMS.
• The 2x4 has a max. output of 0.9V RMS vs the 2x4HD's max. output of 2V RMS.

There are a couple of other smaller differences, too, but those are the important ones IMO.

Thanks! Would you recommend DIRAC for subwoofer correction? or would you recommend to try first without DIRAC and then add if necessary?

 

[andreasmaaan]

Thanks! Would you recommend DIRAC for subwoofer correction? or would you recommend to try first without DIRAC and then add if necessary?

I've never used DIRAC. Have always done it manually. So I'm wrong person to ask I'm afraid...

 

[detlev24]

Thanks a lot for your detailed write up! I am now leaning towards minidsp 2x4HD. But there are two versions 2x4 and 2x4HD. The difference is Toslink connectivity. Am not sure if I would need that. Moreover, I am wondering if I need DIRAC for sub correction? In that case, I can first try without DIRAC and then do an upgrade. Hope both 2x4 and HD options support DIRAC upgrade.

You are most welcome! A very important difference between the two devices is processing power; '2x4 HD' therefore allows for more flexibility and better results with, e.g., MSO generated filters [following, a screenshot from miniDSP's MSO tutorial for LFE channel]:

Spoiler

As a side note, only the '2x4 HD' could be upgraded with Dirac Live [stereo] - if required for different use, one day. However, you can always apply any [high-quality] room EQ on top of an integration with MSO (!): automatically - like Dirac Live; or with further manual tuning.

[> Manually time-aligning subwoofer(s) to mains - how to < might come in handy at some point, depending on your integration.]

But for 2ch music, do you also think that it will be better than my AVR?

Most probably, a decent external DAC would perform better than your AVR. However, I wouldn't expect differences to be (clearly) audible - too much masking is happening on the grand scheme of things. I would suggest you first get your subwoofers' integration fixed and your room acoustics [you actually would require to do it the opposite way around] - the latter, as much as you can commonly agree to within your household. I would leave all the extras for future investments, as they certainly would not improve anything as drastically as what you could reach by tuning the aforementioned two categories.

Great. I will look into GIK Acoustics. I met them in Munich HiEnd last year. They asked me to send REW files so that they can analyse and advice.

GIK Acoustics has great - working(!) - products and they are still reasonably priced. In the US, I would highly recommend RealTraps as well, as they offer more refined builds and their customer support is excellent. // REW measurements are not necessarily required, though, as you will not be aiming for studio-like reverberation times in your living room. Anyway, I think their service comes for free or at least is included with an order - so, it certainly won't hurt.

For the early reflections, free-standing acoustic panels seems to be a great choice. I will look into them as well. Today, I am using my floor chair. This is visible in my picture. This is already helping :-D.

Actually, that came to my mind when I saw your pictures.

How does one calculate the room volume for subwoofer placement and subwoofer size determination. Does one count the open area or just the listening area.

You would include the whole area of your [physical] room; which in your case includes the dining area. Sound waves require [hard] surfaces to be reflected (simplified), which includes bass frequencies. Albeit, acoustic principles are different below and above the [individual] Schroeder frequency of any room. No walls would mean no room modes - the best scenario in the bass region! Hence my previous suggestion to put as many properly placed bass traps in your room, as possible. On another note, you would never be able to make your room sound "dead" in the MF/HF region(s), simply due to the open dining space of yours.

This being said, there is no option to calculate for optimum placement of subwoofers in your room. The only way to do things properly is described here + maybe, you should include aesthetics in your decision(s) [the current placements look fine to me^^].

NB: frequency response will change due to different excitation of room modes [and combined SPL will increase], as soon as both subwoofers reproduce the same frequencies at the same time - as intended with a common set-up MONO channel. Subwoofer size depends on the output [low distortion, max. SPL] you seek to reach at your listening position(s). Once your dual subwoofers have been properly integrated you can decide, if you wish for even more impact [through bigger drivers and/or vented or passive radiating designs]. I doubt you would feel the imminent urge to upgrade...

 

[Bear123]

Thanks ! Is the sound signature between Denon 3700 and Yamaha AVR's different? I myself compared an older Denon with my AVR775. I did not like the sound signature of Denon. Yamaha had a warm signature which was amazing for movies. When I raised this in ASR, I was told that all AVRs have the same sound signature for e.g. Dolby 5.1. The only way to find if it has a different sound signature is to run both Denon and Yamaha in Pure Direct mode to see if there is any difference. I want to compare both myself. In Yamaha FB group, there was another one who compared Yamaha AVR 1080 with Denon (do not recollect the model) and had the same impression like mine. It seems there are many fans of Yamaha surround AI logic. Unfortunately, Yamaha did not measure well here in ASR though it needs to be seen if those defects are really audible. On the other hand, Denon 3700 has measured well here. But I am unable to learn on the sound signature as the measurements does not give me this information.

If this is really true, then my favourite is used Yamaha CX-a5100 as it has balanced outs and ESS DAC whereas my AVR775 has burr brown. I learnt ESS is the best. Not sure what Denon is using.

Concerning subs, both Rhythmik and PSA are super expensive to import to EU. So, I am restricted to what is available in EU also considering warranty and ease of repair.

I wouldn't put too much faith in "sound signature" between avr's...i think we are simply hearing a difference between the results of room correction. Changing the response changes what we hear.

For subs, since US brands are mostly out, I'd probably look at Arendal or a higher tier SVS model. I think the SB3000 is a great sub for music...not because its sealed but becuase it appears to have pretty good sensitivity which, IME, improves music performance.

Actually, since you seem to be striving for superb objective performance in order to acheive superb subjective results, I think the Arendal 1723 2S in gloss or satin white will be a great solution for you. They have 3-4x the capability of your SB12's with a nice strong top end. I think you will get a *very* significant improvement across the board with these.

I think the X3600/3700 or minidsp 2x4 HD is one of your solutions, and given that you will be using Genelec's eq for your LCR, I'm not sure what your best bet is.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I own Revel, Kef , and Neumann speakers . For wide dispersion speakers , I can’t think of anything better than Revel, if narrow dispersion is ok the KEF R series and reference are on par and Neumann and Genelec are top notch.

Revel: top wide dispersion passive
KEF: top narrow dispersion passive
Neumann & Genelec: top narrow dispersion active

So do you prefer the wide or narrow dispersion transducers, and which do you think would work better in a smaller listening space?

 

[waynel]

So do you prefer the wide or narrow dispersion transducers, and which do you think would work better in a smaller listening space?

For nearfield I prefer narrow (Neumann's on my desk), at greater distance I prefer wide but the KEFs sound good too and it's nice to have both.

 

[Pearljam5000]

This "darkness" made the Neumanns sound "veiled" ( the infamous Sennheiser veil in headphones is also present here lol)
The Genelecs sound brighter, have a bigger soundstage, instrument separation and tonality also better on the Genelecs that's why i sold my KH120 but it's also really subjective because some people feel Genelecs sound super bright and have no soul.

 

[waynel]

This "darkness" made the Neumanns sound "veiled" ( the infamous Sennheiser veil in headphones is also present here lol)
The Genelecs sound brighter, have a bigger soundstage, instrument separation and tonality also better on the Genelecs that's why i sold my KH120 but it's also really subjective because some people feel Genelecs sound super bright and have no soul.

My KH120s sound fine to me (having them properly positioned on stand makes a huge different and I listen at less than 1m), I believe that I would be equally happy with 8030c's

 

[Pearljam5000]

My KH120s sound fine to me (having them properly positioned on stand makes a huge different and I listen at less than 1m), I believe that I would be equally happy with 8030c's

I'm not saying they're bad, I'm saying they're amazing but i prefer the Genelec house sound. It's purely a personal preference, i doubt that there's any other 5 inch speaker in the world that sounds that big and has that much tight bass as the KH120, the highs are little off for me, that's it, on the other hand i always liked extremely bright sound.

 

[waynel]

I'm not saying they're bad, I'm saying they're amazing but i prefer the Genelec house sound. It's purely a personal preference, i doubt that there's any other 5 inch speaker in the world that sounds that big and has that much tight bass as the KH120, the highs are little off for me, that's it, on the other hand i always liked extremely bright sound.

How far did you listen? I wonder is a greater distance made the difference for you.

 

[Pearljam5000]

How far did you listen? I wonder is a greater distance made the difference for you.

I tried various distances and heights all nearfield, nothing worked but my room is an untreated 3X3 meters crappy room, i blame the room more than the monitors, on other hand there's something about Genelecs that's very special, especially the tonality that i can't find in any other brand

 

[richard12511]

This "darkness" made the Neumanns sound "veiled" ( the infamous Sennheiser veil in headphones is also present here lol)
The Genelecs sound brighter, have a bigger soundstage, instrument separation and tonality also better on the Genelecs that's why i sold my KH120 but it's also really subjective because some people feel Genelecs sound super bright and have no soul.

Revel M105 is another 5"er that sounds even bigger and wider than the 8030c. I use the former in my garage(far field), and the latter in my office(near field) atm. I mostly prefer the 8030c, but for certain songs for which imaging doesn't really matter(ex: symphonic music), I arguably like the M105 more.

 

[Bear123]

How to know life is good:

Revel M105 is your garage speaker.

 

[richard12511]

How to know life is good:

Revel M105 is your garage speaker.

When Covid closed all the gyms, I canceled my Gold's membership and turned the garage into a little home gym. Makes it more enjoyable to have music playing while I lift(hate how headphones get super sweaty). Downside is I no longer have a garage to put my car in .

 

[Bear123]

When Covid closed all the gyms, I canceled my Gold's membership and turned the garage into a little home gym. Makes it more enjoyable to have music playing while I lift(hate how headphones get super sweaty). Downside is I no longer have a garage to put my car in .

 

[617]

Nothing like blasting some Jewel to get through some gnarly deadlifts

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

pls define "Better".

All passive speakers have inherent limitations.
you cannot correct frequency and impulse response at the same time.
you have to use expensive and intrusive coils and caps in the signal path...
Xo filters typically are 2nd order.. 12db-octave while digitally you can easily go 48db.
you cannot apply time delay to each driver to have better integration of the sound wave at listening position.
It's more or less that was possible 50-70 years ago, refined...

(IMHO) no passive speaker equal in technology what is possible today with wise use of DSP.

listen to Kii three, D&D, B&O Beolab 90 but also Genelec or the Germans: Geithain, Neumann, Adam audio in the pro audio industry
it might help answering the question...
L.

I wonder why JBL M2 is passive?

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

View attachment 99357

Be careful. I lifted heavy for decades. Now have horrible joint issues.

 

[muslhead]

Be careful. I lifted heavy for decades. Now have horrible joint issues.

What Alice said. If i could take back the years of "heavy", i would. My one regret of working out >45 years