Would someone care to interprate Amir's measurements/reviews here? Revel v Wharfedale.

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Yorkshire Mouth, above is from your original post starting this thread. Below is from your response to my reply to that post.

I find this response a little strange, even nonsensical, given your statement in the first post starting the thread "[a]fter that I'll let you know my thinking, but you might want to write your comments in the reply box before reading that bit, so as not to colour your judgement".

(Before responding, please go back and read your entire first post).

I did as you suggested.

Moreover, your original post did not mention "usage would be pretty much nearfield". So, following your suggestion to comment before reading your thinking, how would I have known nearfield was in your thinking at the time I commented? If I had read the entire thread before posting my comments, my judgement may have been coloured and I would have found your thinking. That would have been contrary to your original suggestion, though.

Lastly, I find your comment "I’m not having a go at anyone else with any of these points" to be rather distasteful, especially for "having a go" at me because I followed your suggestion while trying to provide perspective that you requested.

No offence intended, sorry if you took any.

Best wishes, and thanks for contributing.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

At the moment, I’m thinking like this.

If I buy the 12.1s I’ll possibly be left wondering whether I should have gone for the Revels, which I quite possibly may end up never buying, possibly never being able to buy. Maybe never have the spare cash, or be able to track down a pair (I suspect the price drops may indicate they won’t be around forever).

If I buy the Revels, I can always buy the 12.1s in the future. They’re cheap enough, and have sold bucketloads in the UK.

So I think I’m tending towards the Revels, or possibly both (I’d have use for the 12.1s in a bedroom system, if nothing else).

 

[Shivers]

12.1's for £169. Ex display but full warranty etc, I bought my 12.1's from them and they were as new.

 

[Robbo99999]

At the moment, I’m thinking like this.

If I buy the 12.1s I’ll possibly be left wondering whether I should have gone for the Revels, which I quite possibly may end up never buying, possibly never being able to buy. Maybe never have the spare cash, or be able to track down a pair (I suspect the price drops may indicate they won’t be around forever).

If I buy the Revels, I can always buy the 12.1s in the future. They’re cheap enough, and have sold bucketloads in the UK.

So I think I’m tending towards the Revels, or possibly both (I’d have use for the 12.1s in a bedroom system, if nothing else).

Hang on man, why are you talking about buying the Revels if you can't afford to buy them! You found an excellent deal on them so in my opinion you'd want to buy them now - almost every price I looked up was £1000 for a pair but you found £549 for a pair which is an immediate buy if you've got the cash and agree with people's points they've put across. If you don't have the money for the Revel's no point in talking about them and instead we should have restricted this thread to a budget you can actually use.

 

[PyramidElectric]

once again, they're actually available for under £500 from a reputable UK dealer: https://nintronics.co.uk/products/revel-m16-bookshelf-speakers?variant=44232506605801
Re "I suspect the price drops may indicate they won’t be around forever" they've often been available for under £650 for at least 2-3 years now, which is already a lot under their RRP, so i wouldn't read too much into the current discounting, obviously no way of knowing this for sure though (other than Revel themselves confirming, but this is unlikely). I don't know if you want/need to hear this, but my personal *subjective* experience with M16s is that I paid (i think) £650 for them and I consider them my best hi-fi investment ever, they're that good.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Hang on man, why are you talking about buying the Revels if you can't afford to buy them! You found an excellent deal on them so in my opinion you'd want to buy them now - almost every price I looked up was £1000 for a pair but you found £549 for a pair which is an immediate buy if you've got the cash and agree with people's points they've put across. If you don't have the money for the Revel's no point in talking about them and instead we should have restricted this thread to a budget you can actually use.

I think there might be a confusion btw pair and piece price. The above link show ca 500GBP per piece if I am not mistaken.

 

[PyramidElectric]

I think there might be a confusion btw pair and piece price. The above link show ca 500GBP per piece if I am not mistaken.

It's very, very unusual for UK hi-fi retailers to sell 'non professional' speakers individually. Also the quoted RRP, is actually the RRP for a pair.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Hang on man, why are you talking about buying the Revels if you can't afford to buy them! You found an excellent deal on them so in my opinion you'd want to buy them now - almost every price I looked up was £1000 for a pair but you found £549 for a pair which is an immediate buy if you've got the cash and agree with people's points they've put across. If you don't have the money for the Revel's no point in talking about them and instead we should have restricted this thread to a budget you can actually use.

At no point have I said I can’t afford the Revels.

EDIT: I’ve just gone back and re-read every post I’ve made in case I mis-spoke, and I have definitely not said or even hinted that I can’t afford the Revels. Indeed, in post 77 I said that, at a push, I could afford both the M16s and the 12.1s.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

It's very, very unusual for UK hi-fi retailers to sell 'non professional' speakers individually. Also the quoted RRP, is actually the RRP for a pair.

500 per pair. That’s excellent indeed for the Revels

At @Yorkshire Mouth what are you waiting for?

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

500 per pair. That’s excellent indeed for the Revels

At @Yorkshire Mouth what are you waiting for?

Good question. Well, I’ve just (pretty much) made up my mind, for one.

I’ll let you know how I get on.

 

[beagleman]

In that I own the 12.1's for a short time, and have heard, the Revel in question, albeit NOT side by side with my Wharfedale's, there for Sure is no slam dunk
"Better Speaker" between these two.

If anything, I might lean a tad towards the 12.1, but we are talking relatively small differences and another might choose the Revel and be just as happy.
The built in BBC dip, is not a downside in my experience, and when Eqed, can be fixed easily.

Pairing with a sub makes a huge difference.

 

[Robbo99999]

At no point have I said I can’t afford the Revels.

EDIT: I’ve just gone back and re-read every post I’ve made in case I mis-spoke, and I have definitely not said or even hinted that I can’t afford the Revels. Indeed, in post 77 I said that, at a push, I could afford both the M16s and the 12.1s.

Come on, don't be silly, what does the following excerpt from your earlier post mean then?
".....be left wondering whether I should have gone for the Revels, which I quite possibly may end up never buying, possibly never being able to buy. Maybe never have the spare cash,....."
Perhaps be a bit more consistent with what you're writing, it's a waste of time & space having misunderstandings like this.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Come on, don't be silly, what does the following excerpt from your earlier post mean then?
".....be left wondering whether I should have gone for the Revels, which I quite possibly may end up never buying, possibly never being able to buy. Maybe never have the spare cash,....."
Perhaps be a bit more consistent with what you're writing, it's a waste of time & space having misunderstandings like this.

Crikey! I think that’s a little out of context. What I was saying there - and quite clearly, I think - was that I’m making a buying choice soon, and I want to get it right because in the future I might not have the chance/spare cash.

Quite clearly, from everything I’ve said in this thread, I’m weighing up the pros and cons of these two speakers, and which ones to buy, now.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

In that I own the 12.1's for a short time, and have heard, the Revel in question, albeit NOT side by side with my Wharfedale's, there for Sure is no slam dunk
"Better Speaker" between these two.

If anything, I might lean a tad towards the 12.1, but we are talking relatively small differences and another might choose the Revel and be just as happy.
The built in BBC dip, is not a downside in my experience, and when Eqed, can be fixed easily.

Pairing with a sub makes a huge difference.

Cheers. When you say pairing with a sub makes a huge difference, do you mean to which ones you’d choose? Does a sub elevate one more than the other?

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

For @Robbo99999 , for clarity, please note that in this thread I’ve said:

“Okay, I'm looking at two reviews, and trying to see if I should get one or the other.”

And:

“Just for clarity, I don’t have £1k. The M16s can be had for £500-£550 in the UK at the moment, which is far more of a ballpark top end.”

That was in direct reply to you, so I’m not sure how you missed it.

And:

“I can afford the Revels. Push comes to shove, I can afford both, and trust me, I’m still considering that.”

That was a good sign that I can afford the Revels. Me saying “I can afford the Revels”.

And then:

“The Linton? In a flash, mate! But they’re probably just a sniff outside my absolute maximum budget…”

The Lintons sell for £1,100.

So yes, I think I’ve been very clear indeed there that I can afford the Revels. Hope that clears it up for you.

 

[beagleman]

Cheers. When you say pairing with a sub makes a huge difference, do you mean to which ones you’d choose? Does a sub elevate one more than the other?

Sorry to not make that more clear.
I was referring to the Wharfedale 12.1, as I have NOT heard the Revel with a sub.

With sub, the 12.1 sounds utterly great. I am still shocked at how much I enjoy these, and how smooth and neutral they sound.

Only cons I have found so far with 12.1, is limited deep bass wise, (Obviously) and overall loudness wise, if you are looking for LOUD party speakers or huge volume levels, they will not supply but work great at "reasonable" loud levels.

 

[dominikz]

I can confirm that Revel M16 also benefit greatly from a well-integrated sub.
But IMHO any non-cardioid loudspeaker will equally benefit from a well-integrated sub - even large floor standing speakers that can play low and loud.
The reason is that with a separate sub and mains you can optimize positioning of each to move the main "Speaker Boundary Interference Response" (SBIR) dip out of the operating area of either.
Cardioid-bass full-range loudspeakers are a special case that allow you to avoid the main SBIR dip by having the front-wall in the null of the cardioid radiation (works when the loudspeaker is close to the wall behind it). This is why with those you can sometimes get really good full-range response without using a subwoofer.

This guide from Genelec has a simplified explanation of the basic principles of optimal loudspeaker/sub placement with regard to SBIR effects in its second half (see chapters "Wall Reflections and Cancellations" and "Placement of the Monitors and the Subwoofer").

I like the following pictures especially:

Optimal placement for loudspeakers when used without a sub:

Note: having the front face of the loudspeaker <60cm from the wall behind will put the SBIR null >143Hz. The closer to the wall you place it, the higher in frequency the null moves - which is good as high frequencies are easier to control/absorb and are also usually less problematic audibly. This is why soffit-mounted loudspeakers are considered ideal - the front-wall SBIR null is moved so high in frequency it effectively doesn't exist anymore.

Optimal placement when loudspeakers are used with a sub:

Note: having the front face of the loudspeaker >1,1m cm from the wall behind will put the SBIR null <78Hz. Given that people normally high-pass the mains at 80Hz when used with a sub, the null is now out of the loudspeaker operating area. Putting the sub <60cm from the wall behind will put the SBIR null >143Hz, which again moves it out of the sub's operating area (assuming low pass at 80Hz). The result is that there is effectively no front-wall SBIR null in the combined system response.

The full article is IMHO well-worth a read.

This online SBIR calculator is a nice tool to see at which frequencies SBIR dips and peaks end up for specific placement of a loudspeaker (or subwoofer) compared to various room boundaries. As I tried to illustrate in the notes above, playing with the calculator a bit one quickly realizes why Genelec make those specific placement recommendations

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

So

I can confirm that Revel M16 also benefit greatly from a well-integrated sub.
But IMHO any non-cardioid loudspeaker will equally benefit from a well-integrated sub - even large floor standing speakers that can play low and loud.
The reason is that with a separate sub and mains you can optimize positioning of each to move the main "Speaker Boundary Interference Response" (SBIR) dip out of the operating area of either.
Cardioid-bass full-range loudspeakers are a special case that allow you to avoid the main SBIR dip by having the front-wall in the null of the cardioid radiation (works when the loudspeaker is close to the wall behind it). This is why with those you can sometimes get really good full-range response without using a subwoofer.

This guide from Genelec has a simplified explanation of the basic principles of optimal loudspeaker/sub placement with regard to SBIR effects in its second half (see chapters "Wall Reflections and Cancellations" and "Placement of the Monitors and the Subwoofer").

I like the following pictures especially:

Optimal placement for loudspeakers when used without a sub:

Note: having the front face of the loudspeaker <60cm from the wall behind will put the SBIR null >143Hz. The closer to the wall you place it, the higher in frequency the null moves - which is good as high frequencies are easier to control/absorb and are also usually less problematic audibly. This is why soffit-mounted loudspeakers are considered ideal - the front-wall SBIR null is moved so high in frequency it effectively doesn't exist anymore.

Optimal placement when loudspeakers are used with a sub:

Note: having the front face of the loudspeaker >1,1m cm from the wall behind will put the SBIR null <78Hz. Given that people normally high-pass the mains at 80Hz when used with a sub, the null is now out of the loudspeaker operating area. Putting the sub <60cm from the wall behind will put the SBIR null >143Hz, which again moves it out of the sub's operating area (assuming low pass at 80Hz). The result is that there is effectively no front-wall SBIR null in the combined system response.

The full article is IMHO well-worth a read.

This online SBIR calculator is a nice tool to see at which frequencies SBIR dips and peaks end up for specific placement of a loudspeaker (or subwoofer) compared to various room boundaries. As I tried to illustrate in the notes above, playing with the calculator a bit one quickly realizes why Genelec make those specific placement recommendations

So, if I’m using the Revels with a sub, I need to either place the Revels right up against wall, or over 1.1m away, and the sub a maximum of 60cm away?

 

[ahofer]

So


So, if I’m using the Revels with a sub, I need to either place the Revels right up against wall, or over 1.1m away, and the sub a maximum of 60cm away?

The placement close to the wall reinforces low frequencies and flattens out the taper on the bottom end of the frequency response. These are taken over by the sub, if it exists, and wall reflections from the speakers would just muddy things up.

As always, using REW and measuring a bit will really help with placement, but this advice probably saves you a lot of time as a starting point.

 

[dominikz]

So


So, if I’m using the Revels with a sub, I need to either place the Revels right up against wall, or over 1.1m away, and the sub a maximum of 60cm away?

Indeed.

Note that you need about 5-10cm behind the loudspeaker for the port to work correctly. So when we talk about placement against the wall, the 5-10cm distance is referenced to the back of the loudspeaker - i.e this is the clearance required for a back-facing port to work correctly. If there is no back-port you can put the loudspeaker's back side right against the wall.

However, when we talk about SBIR the distance is always measured from the front face of the loudspeaker (i.e. the side that usually contains all the drivers). So if you have a 40cm deep loudspeaker (and want to put the SBIR null <78Hz) you need to have the loudspeaker's back side >70cm from the wall to have the front face / drivers >1,1m from the same wall. Same goes for subwoofers, naturally.

EDIT: The comment by @ahofer on bass reinforcement caused by the boundary is absolutely correct as well - this is also explained by the Genelec article I linked before. This reinforcement can actually be beneficial in some cases, especially when using room EQ, as it provides more headroom for subtractive PEQs.