What speaker brands would you consider better than Revel?

[Sprint]

if you measure the step response you’ll notice how the floor reflection will be high in level (hard floor) and near in time (speaker near floor) to the direct sound.
this will mask the direct sound and potentially vanish all the advantages you might have with such great speakers. Measure it and you’ll immediately notice what I’m referring to. It’s like having a mirror speaker below the floor. To solve this a thick carpet in front of speakers and rise them up at ear level (they are 2ways, not good above tweeter level, must be on axis).
this is much more relevant than where subs are located.
Minidsp is a great and convenient tool to fix time delay, level, and eq (with Diraclive you have it all)
Hope this help.
My Best
L.

Thanks @Lorenzo74! How can I measure step response? I would also have preferred to put at the ear level. Shall I place the speaker on top of the subs? But will it not increase the listening distance by another 40cm (especially the right speaker? Do you think placing on the sub is still sonically better inspite of 40 cm longer distance? this would then avoid bouncing reflections of the floor atleast for the left and right speakers? If I place above the subs and angle it upward, then I may be closer to the axis.

 

[Sprint]

I'm not saying they're bad, I'm saying they're amazing but i prefer the Genelec house sound. It's purely a personal preference, i doubt that there's any other 5 inch speaker in the world that sounds that big and has that much tight bass as the KH120, the highs are little off for me, that's it, on the other hand i always liked extremely bright sound.

I agree. I had the same impression when I compared KH310, KH120 to Genelecs 8050, 830.

 

[Sprint]

I wouldn't put too much faith in "sound signature" between avr's...i think we are simply hearing a difference between the results of room correction. Changing the response changes what we hear.

For subs, since US brands are mostly out, I'd probably look at Arendal or a higher tier SVS model. I think the SB3000 is a great sub for music...not because its sealed but becuase it appears to have pretty good sensitivity which, IME, improves music performance.

Actually, since you seem to be striving for superb objective performance in order to acheive superb subjective results, I think the Arendal 1723 2S in gloss or satin white will be a great solution for you. They have 3-4x the capability of your SB12's with a nice strong top end. I think you will get a *very* significant improvement across the board with these.

I think the X3600/3700 or minidsp 2x4 HD is one of your solutions, and given that you will be using Genelec's eq for your LCR, I'm not sure what your best bet is.

@Bear123 Thanks, you nailed it perfect! I was thinking about 1723 2S as well. Would I need 2 of them or 1 would be sufficient? Now I need to decide on 3700 or minidsp 2x4HD. I am leaning towards minidsp. Reason, when I go for Arendal and Denon, I can then use mindsp with my open baffles (see picture) in my listening room. Currently my open baffles are run from a Steinberger UR22 interface with LD Systems x700 PA amps. and all this with out any room correction. when the Arendal comes, I will move the SVS to my listening room, add a nice integrated amp like Yamaha AS-1200 and use minidsp for 2.2 ch music room correction.

 

[Sprint]

You are most welcome! A very important difference between the two devices is processing power; '2x4 HD' therefore allows for more flexibility and better results with, e.g., MSO generated filters [following, a screenshot from miniDSP's MSO tutorial for LFE channel]:

Spoiler

View attachment 99237

As a side note, only the '2x4 HD' could be upgraded with Dirac Live [stereo] - if required for different use, one day. However, you can always apply any [high-quality] room EQ on top of an integration with MSO (!): automatically - like Dirac Live; or with further manual tuning.

[> Manually time-aligning subwoofer(s) to mains - how to < might come in handy at some point, depending on your integration.]


Most probably, a decent external DAC would perform better than your AVR. However, I wouldn't expect differences to be (clearly) audible - too much masking is happening on the grand scheme of things. I would suggest you first get your subwoofers' integration fixed and your room acoustics [you actually would require to do it the opposite way around] - the latter, as much as you can commonly agree to within your household. I would leave all the extras for future investments, as they certainly would not improve anything as drastically as what you could reach by tuning the aforementioned two categories.


GIK Acoustics has great - working(!) - products and they are still reasonably priced. In the US, I would highly recommend RealTraps as well, as they offer more refined builds and their customer support is excellent. // REW measurements are not necessarily required, though, as you will not be aiming for studio-like reverberation times in your living room. Anyway, I think their service comes for free or at least is included with an order - so, it certainly won't hurt.


Actually, that came to my mind when I saw your pictures.


You would include the whole area of your [physical] room; which in your case includes the dining area. Sound waves require [hard] surfaces to be reflected (simplified), which includes bass frequencies. Albeit, acoustic principles are different below and above the [individual] Schroeder frequency of any room. No walls would mean no room modes - the best scenario in the bass region! Hence my previous suggestion to put as many properly placed bass traps in your room, as possible. On another note, you would never be able to make your room sound "dead" in the MF/HF region(s), simply due to the open dining space of yours.

This being said, there is no option to calculate for optimum placement of subwoofers in your room. The only way to do things properly is described here + maybe, you should include aesthetics in your decision(s) [the current placements look fine to me^^].

NB: frequency response will change due to different excitation of room modes [and combined SPL will increase], as soon as both subwoofers reproduce the same frequencies at the same time - as intended with a common set-up MONO channel. Subwoofer size depends on the output [low distortion, max. SPL] you seek to reach at your listening position(s). Once your dual subwoofers have been properly integrated you can decide, if you wish for even more impact [through bigger drivers and/or vented or passive radiating designs]. I doubt you would feel the imminent urge to upgrade...

Thanks a bunch!! I will try this during my Christmas. Hope I can order a minidsp soon. Hope it arrives before my Christmas vacation ends.

 

[Bear123]

@Bear123 Thanks, you nailed it perfect! I was thinking about 1723 2S as well. Would I need 2 of them or 1 would be sufficient? Now I need to decide on 3700 or minidsp 2x4HD. I am leaning towards minidsp. Reason, when I go for Arendal and Denon, I can then use mindsp with my open baffles (see picture) in my listening room. Currently my open baffles are run from a Steinberger UR22 interface with LD Systems x700 PA amps. and all this with out any room correction. when the Arendal comes, I will move the SVS to my listening room, add a nice integrated amp like Yamaha AS-1200 and use minidsp for 2.2 ch music room correction.
View attachment 99510

View attachment 99509

Since it would seem that your goal is high fidelity, I would suggest dual subs. With correct placement, you should be able to get a nice even response over a large listening area. And a *pair* of the Arendal cost less than one Genelec sub. Not cheap but also not a bad value given the capability, and lack of accessibility to the us sub market. The manufacturer CEA-2010 numbers look pretty stout.

So your saying minidsp and Arendal now, then repurpose the miniDSP to your music only room and go with the 3700 for the tv room? What happens when your TV room with a Denon AVR sounds better than your dedicated music room?

One of the things I appreciate about my current system is that I have far more capability than I need, which is just right. So no matter what level I listen at, it sounds great.

 

[MattHooper]

I've listened to a decent number of speakers and imo none of them were even close to what I heard from Revel. I'm getting the upgrade bug and I was curious what speaker brands had speakers that you guys considered better than the equivalent at Revel?

If we are simply comparing our subjective impressions: I auditioned Revel speakers (Performa, and have heard the Salons) and though very competent sounding designs, I'd take the Thiel 3.7s I owned at the time, or my current Joseph Audio Perspective speakers over the Revels any day.
To my ears the Thiels sounded very similar, but the timbre of voices and instruments, and imaging precision/density, struck me as "better." I find the Joseph speakers have a particular combination of clarity and resolution without a hint of "grain" to a degree I rarely hear in other speakers. And certain speakers, like the Devore Orangutan 96, made various tracks sound "more live" to my ears than I got from the Revels, even if those ones weren't by-the-book neutral. Simply my impressions/preferences.

I'd say the Vivid audio speakers (I auditioned one, and spent a bunch of time listening over different days to the Kaya model) strike me as sounding more...well... impressively "vivid" than I remember from the Revel. It's impossible not to just be struck by the sense of boxless clarity in their sound.

I auditioned the Magico A3 with my test tracks for hours. Another very competent sounding speaker (though the bass was a bit looser than I was expecting, could have been a set up thing). Very boxless, detailed, imaged and soundstaged effortlessly, tonally fairly neutral, but a bit fatiguing to me over time.

The Paradigm Persona speakers can play well against the Revels, and even sound a bit more vivid, but I think part of that is a rise in the treble. (I found the Persona's got a bit fatiquing after time during the audition).

I also auditioned the Kii speakers and it would be a toss up for me between them and the Revel.

As for audio magic tricks, I find the MBL omni speakers to do things no Revel (or really any box speaker) I've heard match. Those things can simply beam down musicians in to 3 dimensional space in front of me, with an astounding sense of clarity and resolution, like no other.

 

[Purité Audio]

Omni’s ideal for non critical listening and parties.
Keith

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Mars to Earth: I think you mistake active, passive and powered.

• A passive speakers has a passive xover and requires a single power amp to feed it. This power amp may be built-in but it does not change the speaker to an active one.
• An active speaker has an active xover and requires 2 or more power amps to feed it's drivers directly. Those power amps may not be built-in (JBL M2) but this does not change the speaker to a passive one.

It is confusing. I researched and still confused. Main difference seems to be for active is crossover before amplification. Most powered speakers seem to do this. Several descriptions on dealer sites described the M2 as passive. Obviously needs not only external amplification but also external crossover.

 

[Lorenzo74]

M2 is definitely an active speaker, but I do like that the amps are separate.

Also, @Alice of Old Vincennes , I don’t understand what you mean when you say ~“there’s a reason pros use passive speakers”? It seems to me that the “pros” overwhelmingly favor active designs (Genelec, Neumann, JBL, Dynaudio, QTC, etc.). It seems to me that passives are only heavily favored in the consumer market.

Perhaps we have a different definition of “passive”?

Thank you Richard, Alice seems to me a quite confused.
best
L.

 

[andreasmaaan]

It is confusing. I researched and still confused. Main difference seems to be for active is crossover before amplification. Most powered speakers seem to do this. Several descriptions on dealer sites described the M2 as passive. Obviously needs not only external amplification but also external crossover.

@LTig is correct though, the "active" vs "passive" question is all about the location of the crossover: active = before amplification, and passive = after.

Powered is a separate question completely.

These are often confused though, even by dealers (perhaps sometimes intentionally), so it's totally understandable you would be mistaken about the M2.

 

[detlev24]

Thanks @Lorenzo74! How can I measure step response? I would also have preferred to put at the ear level. Shall I place the speaker on top of the subs? But will it not increase the listening distance by another 40cm (especially the right speaker? Do you think placing on the sub is still sonically better inspite of 40 cm longer distance? this would then avoid bouncing reflections of the floor atleast for the left and right speakers? If I place above the subs and angle it upward, then I may be closer to the axis.

Step response can be read on REW's Impulse Graph section.

Keep the loudspeakers at their current locations; besides small adjustments. Wouldn't the "Iso Pods" below your 8340A_s allow to tilt the loudspeakers in such way, that the acoustic axis [½-way between tweeter and woofer] would reach at roughly ear(s) height at your listening postition(s)? Place them as closely to the front of your TV furniture as possible - as you already did.

Btw., a laser rangefinder helps greatly to adjust loudspeaker distances and acoustic axes! For instance, if you take the (front) left main loudspeaker as a reference and if you have the exact same distances to your MLP (main listening position) of the center- and (front) right loudspeakers: no time-alignment should be required of those three. If distances vary, your AVR should give you some options to adjust timings accordingly.

[...] With correct placement, you should be able to get a nice even response over a large listening area. [...]

Correct. If you, @Sprint, are concerned for mainly one listening position in your dedicated room, one subwoofer - properly placed and integrated - might as well be enough.

Since you posted two pictures: the second placement might give you a better (bass) response, see 'How To Set Up a Listening Room'.

What happens when your TV room with a Denon AVR sounds better than your dedicated music room?

This is very likely!

 

[MattHooper]

Omni’s ideal for non critical listening and parties.
Keith

Nah...great for critical listening!

My MBLs didn't suffer any box effects, had unbelievable you-are-there imaging, incredibly natural levels of fine detail, a huge helping of the things
that many of us look for when we sit down to be entertained in front of a hi-fi system. Eyes closed they could sometimes transport me to the feeling of hearing the musicians live like few other speakers of my experience. YMMV of course.

I get that they aren't your bag, though, apparently.

 

[richard12511]

Nah...great for critical listening!

My MBLs didn't suffer any box effects, had unbelievable you-are-there imaging, incredibly natural levels of fine detail, a huge helping of the things
that many of us look for when we sit down to be entertained in front of a hi-fi system. Eyes closed they could sometimes transport me to the feeling of hearing the musicians live like few other speakers of my experience. YMMV of course.

I get that they aren't your bag, though, apparently.

That's almost the exact opposite of my impression . By far the worst imaging I've ever heard, though it was impressively stable.

*Edit: I've seriously thought about getting some Ohm speakers as party speakers for Thanksgiving/Christmas.

 

[MattHooper]

That's almost the exact opposite of my impression . By far the worst imaging I've ever heard, though it was impressively stable.

Interesting. How did you find the imaging to be bad, and under what conditions?

I auditioned the bigger MBL 101 speakers (not the extremes) a couple times, and ended up with a smaller pair of the MBL 121 omni-monitors. I often enough see people saying omnis image in some exaggerated, fuzzy or ambiguous way, but my MBLs imaged with a specificity and density very close to the best I've heard, while giving an additional sense of space around the images, making them feel more 3dimensional.

 

[richard12511]

Interesting. How did you find the imaging to be bad, and under what conditions?

I auditioned the bigger MBL 101 speakers (not the extremes) a couple times, and ended up with a smaller pair of the MBL 121 omni-monitors. I often enough see people saying omnis image in some exaggerated, fuzzy or ambiguous way, but my MBLs imaged with a specificity and density very close to the best I've heard, while giving an additional sense of space around the images, making them feel more 3dimensional.

I wouldn't call it exaggerated, though "fuzzy" or "ambiguous" does kinda describe what I heard. It was almost like there was no imaging at all. Like the music was coming from nowhere yet everywhere at the same time. When I closed my eyes, it was difficult to point to anywhere and say that's where it was coming from. What was impressive about it though was that I could move my head around quite a bit and the balance wouldn't shift at all. Almost the exact opposite of the Danley SH50, which is the best imaging I've ever heard. With that speaker, though, if you move your head two inches to the right, the image collapses to the right speaker.

Odd that are experiences are so different. Perhaps it's really room dependent. Actually, that sorta makes sense(at least in my mind), given that with omni speakers you're hearing the room more than you're hearing the speakers. I really need to hear them setup properly. That or a Beloab90 in mono mode!!!

 

[Sprint]

Step response can be read on REW's Impulse Graph section.

Keep the loudspeakers at their current locations; besides small adjustments. Wouldn't the "Iso Pods" below your 8340A_s allow to tilt the loudspeakers in such way, that the acoustic axis [½-way between tweeter and woofer] would reach at roughly ear(s) height at your listening postition(s)? Place them as closely to the front of your TV furniture as possible - as you already did.

Btw., a laser rangefinder helps greatly to adjust loudspeaker distances and acoustic axes! For instance, if you take the (front) left main loudspeaker as a reference and if you have the exact same distances to your MLP (main listening position) of the center- and (front) right loudspeakers: no time-alignment should be required of those three. If distances vary, your AVR should give you some options to adjust timings accordingly.

Yeah, I use the "Iso Pods" and the speaker is already angled 15 degree upward. This is already poitning at the ear. My couch is not high and hence it helps already. I could also get some isopods to increase the angle further. I need to try.

When you mean laser range finder, it is the laser distance measuring scale, right to get the right distance. I tried a bit but could not get a equidistant due to strange position of my couch. However GLM is already doing a great job in doing time alignment I suppose.

Correct. If you, @Sprint, are concerned for mainly one listening position in your dedicated room, one subwoofer - properly placed and integrated - might as well be enough.

Since you posted two pictures: the second placement might give you a better (bass) response, see 'How To Set Up a Listening Room'.

Thanks for the links.

This is very likely!

The Tang band from open baffles are excellent. Classical music and certain other genres like jazz, pop are excellent. The issue is that the big woofers in open baffle mode is not producing enough bass. A subwoofer will help them . Moreover I do not use any correction. I would have preferred the open baffles in my TV room as the room is big but WAF gets the vote . For my smaller listening room, it is a bit overwhelming in a small room.

 

[Sprint]

So your saying minidsp and Arendal now, then repurpose the miniDSP to your music only room and go with the 3700 for the tv room? What happens when your TV room with a Denon AVR sounds better than your dedicated music room?

If that happens, my dear open baffles goes for sale in bay !! but I want to keep it for some time. Would want to use a good amp like Yamaha AS-801. I do not have vinyl. would want to set up a turntable for listening to some classical, jazz music. my listening room is not as big as my TV room. wish my boss allowed me to keep the open baffles in TV room, it would have performed better with more space.

 

[detlev24]

[...] When you mean laser range finder, it is the laser distance measuring scale, right to get the right distance. [...]

Correct, a "Laser-Entfernungsmesser".

[...] For my smaller listening room, it is a bit overwhelming in a small room.

Well, your smaller room suffers of even more severe acoustic problems - especially regarding standing waves/room modes - than your living room. Unless, you were referring to the pure visual aspect of bigger loudspeakers in a smaller room.

There is no such thing like too big loudspeakers for a room; as long as you can maintain the minimum listening distance required so that the sound waves emitted from the different drivers "combine" properly, prior to your listening position [and obviously, the loudspeakers physically fit in your room^^].

[EDIT]
If you opted for the second placement of your "open baffles"; this would definitely be a room that benefits from appropriate* diffusers on the back wall - behind your head [instead of absorbers, as I suggested for your living room]. Diffusers would allow the (small) room to sound "bigger" than it actually is, when placed at the suggested position(s).

*appropriate = type(s) depending on the remaining distance of your listening position to the back wall

 

[paddycrow]

Whenever the question of which product is better comes up I have to ask, "Based on what metric?"

The metrics I use are not universal, nor is the weight I give to each. Styling is probably more important to me than others, I find boxy designs like most of KEF's products to be unappealing. Ultra modernistic designs also leave me cold. I also like wood with a nice finish, piano black and other monochrome finishes are a nonstarter. Price is an important factor. Not just MSRP, but out the door price. I won't pay list price and I will stay within my budget!

Lastly, I don't buy products based on opinions and reviews. I need to audition a speaker first hand before I will buy. This is a problem I find with Revel (amongst others). The only place close to me that I can see and hear their speakers is by appointment only, and they have shut down all appointments for the duration of the pandemic.

The choice I make may not have universal appeal, but that's not something I worry about. Weighting factor = zero!

 

[steve59]

The value in buying speakers with good reviews, advertizing, mass appeal is if you try them and don't like them they're easier to resell than obscure brands.