What speaker brands would you consider better than Revel?

[vavan]

Xo filters typically are 2nd order

Revels are 4th order

 

[detlev24]

[...] Even for Rythmik, though it's less certain, because I doubt the servo mechanism can overcome the limitations of a sealed design.

Their servo mechanism does not aim to overcome sealed enclosure limitations [= max. SPL], see here.

 

[q3cpma]

Their servo mechanism does not aim to overcome sealed enclosure limitations [= max. SPL], see here.

But max SPL is defined in regard to a fixed distorsion, so reducing distorsion should improve max SPL, no? Unless the improvements brought by the servo mechanism are small compared to what a relatively small sealed design experiences in low frequencies.

 

[detlev24]

Well, you are not wrong - I get your point.

The difference is that any vented design will add "SPL for free" but under the drawbacks of possible air turbulence/port noise and likely a higher corrective requirement for time-alignment with (ported) main loudspeakers.

Rythmik Audio's servo mechanism actively stops each driver impulse almost instantly through amplifier feedback, to allow for what often is referred to as "fast bass". Inertia would otherwise be quite high on the relatively big 12" to 18" woofers and certainly manifest in terms of [additional] distortion - no matter if a sealed or vented type enclosure was chosen. Following, their website's output comparison at 20 Hz:

Spoiler

• F12: 0db (baseline)
• F8/FM8: -1.5db
• L12: -1db
• F12-300: -0.5db
• LV12F: +2.5db
• L22: +4db
• LVX12: +4db
• FVX12: +4.5db
• E15HP: +5db
• F15HP: +5.5db
• G22: +6db
• F18: +7.5db
• FVX15: +8db
• FV15HP: +11db
• G25HP: +12db
• FV18: +14db
• FV25HP: +17db

 

[Bear123]

Well, you are not wrong - I get your point.

The difference is that any vented design will add "SPL for free" but under the drawbacks of possible air turbulence/port noise and likely a higher corrective requirement for time-alignment with (ported) main loudspeakers.

Rythmik Audio's servo mechanism actively stops each driver impulse almost instantly through amplifier feedback, to receive what often is referred to as "fast bass". Inertia would otherwise be quite high on the relatively big 12" to 18" woofers an certainly manifest in terms of [additional] distortion - no matter if a sealed or vented type enclosure was chosen. Following, their website's output comparison at 20 Hz:
]

Does this matter much(any?) as long as motor strength is kept high enough. So the ratio of cone weight to motor strength can overcome theoretical inertia issues of larger drivers. Especially when we consider that much less excursion is needed. Being larger, an 18" woofer could potentially return to rest more quickly than a 10" driver, given its excursion is much lower.

Check distortion of this 18" subwoofer. No servo. Just a good driver plopped into a sealed cab:
BMS18n862 18" subwoofer

I'm of the mindset that when it comes to bass, bigger is better.

 

[Sprint]

Does this matter much(any?) as long as motor strength is kept high enough. So the ratio of cone weight to motor strength can overcome theoretical inertia issues of larger drivers. Especially when we consider that much less excursion is needed. Being larger, an 18" woofer could potentially return to rest more quickly than a 10" driver, given its excursion is much lower.

Check distortion of this 18" subwoofer. No servo. Just a good driver plopped into a sealed cab:
BMS18n862 18" subwoofer

I'm of the mindset that when it comes to bass, bigger is better.

Thanks! What are the disadvantages to place the subs next to the mains? The subs are SVS sb12nsd. I am contemplating between Genelec 7360 (which is not available in white) but integrates well with my monitors or Arendal 1723 1V which is available in white but have to manage sub management/ integration via minidsp. Here are my living room photos

https://imgur.com/a/TaaZzir

.

 

[detlev24]

[...] I'm of the mindset that when it comes to bass, bigger is better.

Me too.

For the rest, to be sure, one would require to measure distortion and different parameters that would lead to increased distortion (like group delay): with Rythmik Audio's servo mechanism in place and bypassed [this could easily be achieved by disconnecting the respective wires from the drivers]. It would certainly not be possible to identify any changes in the domain of frequency response.

I agree though, that there are different ways to achieve the same target. JBL's "Differential Drive" seems to be one of these - working - options.

[...] What are the disadvantages to place the subs next to the mains? [...]

None, unless a different placement in your room would allow for a more even frequency response over your listening/sofa area. You would only be able to find out by measurements of different locations, though.

You already have a very nice setup, congratulations! What don't you like with your SB12-NSD_s? They measure quite well and distortion will be significantly reduced, if you set them up properly as a single MONO channel + add LPF | HPF to your main loudspeakers. Honestly, I would first spend time on integration using DSP and money on [if possible] basic acoustic room treatment. No rush there to buy new subwoofers, IMHO...

 

[richard12511]

Leaving the price aside, will a Genelec 10" subwoofer due to its ported design perform better than a 10" Neumann sub or 10" Rhythmik sub? As you know I am contemplating between a Genelec Vs non Genelec subwoofer to manage bass for my Genelec actives.

I don't think Rythmik makes a 10" ported sub, but if they did, it would likely have a larger box and much more power and thus be better than the Genelec. I do think the Genelec's spiral port design is better than any port design that Rythmik has, but not enough to offset the physics of Rythmik using better drivers, bigger enclosures, and better amplifiers. Spiral port just makes it closer than it would otherwise be, or at least that's my guess, as Genelec (afaik) hasn't released detailed CEA-2010 style measurements, so it's hard to compare. There is much more complete data out there for the Rythmik subs.

I have no experience with Neumann subs, nor have a I seen detailed CEA-2010 measurements, so I won't comment on that.

That's all before factoring in price. Factoring in price, it's actually more appropriate to compare 10" Genelecs to 18" Rythmiks, which is a landslide victory in favor of the Rythmik.

Biggest reason to go with Genelec subs would be for ease of use with GLM.

 

[Sprint]

Me too.

For the rest, to be sure, one would require to measure distortion and different parameters that would lead to increased distortion (like group delay): with Rythmik Audio's servo mechanism in place and bypassed [this could easily be achieved by disconnecting the respective wires from the drivers]. It would certainly not be possible to identify any changes in the domain of frequency response.

I agree though, that there are different ways to achieve the same target. JBL's "Differential Drive" seems to be one of these - working - options.



None, unless a different placement in your room would allow for a more even frequency response over your listening/sofa area. You would only be able to find out by measurements of different locations, though.

You already have a very nice setup, congratulations! What don't you like with your SB12-NSD_s? They measure quite well and distortion will be significantly reduced, if you set them up properly as a single MONO channel + add LPF | HPF to your main loudspeakers. Honestly, I would first spend time on integration using DSP and money [if possible] on basic acoustic room treatment. No rush there to buy new subwoofers, IMHO...

Thanks for the compliment on the set up! This set up was a result of constant persuasion with my finance minister . There are still some things that can be improved. but I am considering the following options,

A. currently sub correction is via my 7 year old AVR RX-775 YPAO. Not happy with the current sub correction from YPAO and feel that it can be better. Plus I saw many you tube videos that with minidsp things can be done better. This lead to my next question - should I replace AVR to Denon 3700H and do sub correction with Audyssey app

B. my wife wants subs in white color that gels with the living room. So in EU, I have limited options, Arendal or SVS in white.

C. On the other hand, both my wife and I are amazed by Genelecs in our room. So wondering, if we should compromise on white color and go for SOTA Genelec subs that can sonically integrate better with Genelecs monitors?

D. For 2 channel music, I am not sure if Yamaha DACs are doing well here. I am mainly using Apple 4K TV and streaming Apple Music and YouTube. In future I want to add Tidal. so, thinking if I should go all digital with Minidsp SHD as Genelec can take both digital and analog. Arendal and Genelec subs also can take two inputs (one from AVR for movies and another from Minidsp SHD for music). For movies, add minidsp to AVR.

E. Retain SVS subs and AVR. SVS does a good job though - no complains. Just add a minidsp and make the current set up better. Live with this for some years and then do the AVR upgrade to a better one in 2-3 years.

One question, how can I make the sub set up as single mono channel + add LPF to mains. I did not get this. Can you pls. help?

On Acoustic treatments, due to WAF I have not much options. Plus since the entrance to the garden will be blocked, I cannot add any panels on to the right front speaker. The only permission I may get is to add some panels with nice painting or picture on the back wall. I still need to think about how I can cover the electrical plugs behind the center.

 

[richard12511]

Yes, the point of a correctly implemented ported system is greatly improved distorsion at and above the port tuning frequency due to much reduced excursion. Even for Rythmik, though it's less certain, because I doubt the servo mechanism can overcome the limitations of a sealed design.

I think he was asking more about a 10" spiral ported Genelec vs a 10" traditional ported Rythmik, not ported vs sealed(though I could be wrong).

As for sealed vs ported, sealed limitations can definitely be overcome with superior woofage, box size, and amplifier power. I know this to be true with the RS2:
2x18", 4000W(6000W optional), .25 m^3, $3,500, versus the 7370a:
1x12", 400W, .17m^3, $3,950.

 

[Sprint]

I don't think Rythmik makes a 10" ported sub, but if they did, it would likely have a larger box and much more power and thus be better than the Genelec. I do think the Genelec's spiral port design is better than any port design that Rythmik has, but not enough to offset the physics of Rythmik using better drivers, bigger enclosures, and better amplifiers. Spiral port just makes it closer than it would otherwise be, or at least that's my guess, as Genelec (afaik) hasn't released detailed CEA-2010 style measurements, so it's hard to compare. There is much more complete data out there for the Rythmik subs.

I have no experience with Neumann subs, nor have a I seen detailed CEA-2010 measurements, so I won't comment on that.

That's all before factoring in price. Factoring in price, it's actually more appropriate to compare 10" Genelecs to 18" Rythmiks, which is a landslide victory in favor of the Rythmik.

Biggest reason to go with Genelec subs would be for ease of use with GLM.

Thanks! I am looking forward to your review/impression on your new Genelec Bass management/correction with GLM Vs your existing JTR set up with Dirac.

 

[q3cpma]

I think he was asking more about a 10" spiral ported Genelec vs a 10" traditional ported Rythmik, not ported vs sealed(though I could be wrong).

There was also the Neumann in the question. But guess I forgot Rythmik does ported too.

As for sealed vs ported, sealed limitations can definitely be overcome with superior woofage, box size, and amplifier power. I know this to be true with the RS2:
2x18", 4000W(6000W optional), .25 m^3, $3,500, versus the 7370a:
1x12", 400W, .17m^3, $3,950.

Indeed. Really paying for those 7 channels, DSP and US Finntax (it's 2800€ with a 20% VAT, here). Wish they'd do a version of their subs with just digital in/out.
By the way, they now have the 7380: 15" with 800W, but only 17 kg.

 

[Bear123]

Thanks! What are the disadvantages to place the subs next to the mains? The subs are SVS sb12nsd. I am contemplating between Genelec 7360 (which is not available in white) but integrates well with my monitors or Arendal 1723 1V which is available in white but have to manage sub management/ integration via minidsp. Here are my living room photos

https://imgur.com/a/TaaZzir

.

As was previously mentioned, there is no disadvantage if your response is good without nulls. I have found that symmetrical placement for aesthetics seldom gives a good or optimal response. However, sometimes it does, and you simply need to measure to see if its an issue before you consider moving them. Luckily, measuring is cheap and fairly easy. Umik-1 mic for $100 and free download of REW. If your response is great...fantastic. If not, and you have nulls, you need to move one of the subs to fix it.

It does seem like the X3700 would be a great upgrade since it will without a doubt do a drastically better job correcting sub response. I've owned Yamaha with YPAO and measured before and after.....its bad.

The SB12 are decent for small inexpensive subs, but, IMO, you would benefit significantly with a pair of Rythmik E15HP or PSA S1512. IMO, the E15 will have a little more oomph on movies. Despite Rythmik being excellent on music, I think PSA has a small edge due to the pro drivers. I think either option will be a very significant upgrade over the SVS in all areas...output, distortion, sound quality, extension.

 

[richard12511]

Thanks! I am looking forward to your review/impression on your new Genelec Bass management/correction with GLM Vs your existing JTR set up with Dirac.

Actually, it's all become one now . My JTR 210s have been moved to surround duty, with the 8351b taking over mains duty. I'm not currently using GLM, as I just couldn't get it to measure or sound as good as Dirac, plus the 12" Genelec subs just couldn't keep up in my main room, which is open to basically the whole house, and I like to run my subs 4-8dB hot depending on content. I moved them to my much smaller office setup and they're fantastic in there, with more than enough headroom.

Initial experience(first weekend) with GLM was kinda negative, but I was able to get much better results this past weekend with a few simple tweaks:

1. Turn the subs around to face the wall(pushes the sbir out beyond 80Hz)
2. Go in afterwards with manual PEQ(via Roon) to fill in the dips that GLM doesn't handle.

IMO, Dirac 3.0 is worth the money - even with Genelec subs - if you've got multiple subwoofers(since it gives you 3 different options to integrate them). Otherwise, GLM4 + some manual PEQ is just as good(ignore what I said a week or two ago ).

 

[richard12511]

There was also the Neumann in the question. But guess I forgot Rythmik does ported too.


Indeed. Really paying for those 7 channels, DSP and US Finntax (it's 2800€ with a 20% VAT, here). Wish they'd do a version of their subs with just digital in/out.
By the way, they now have the 7380: 15" with 800W, but only 17 kg.

Yeah, by comparison of features/inputs/outputs the JTR is quite limited(1 XLR input, 1 XLR output, gain, lf adjust, crossover, delay). The Genelec is like a swiss army knife of connections on the side, and I don't even know what half of them are for(daisy chain stuff?), so they're wasted on me. I'm just coming from an AVR, but I'm guessing all that stuff is required for more professional use.

 

[Bear123]

@Sprint, check this out. This would look awesome in your place! FV15HP in piano gloss white!!! Superb on music, will rock your world on movies!!

It just hit me that it would take 10-12 SB12NSD to approximate a pair of FV15HP at 20 Hz.

 

[detlev24]

[...] should I replace AVR to Denon 3700H and do sub correction with Audyssey app

B. my wife wants subs in white color that gels with the living room. So in EU, I have limited options, Arendal or SVS in white.

I am not familiar with 'Audyssey MultEQ XT32' but it is said to work quite well for bass management. On the less expensive side; with much better options for multiple-subwoofer integration and providing better results, you could add a miniDSP 2x4 HD just for the combined subwoofers' MONO channel - plugged to your current AVR. // Multi-Sub Optimizer (MSO) would allow to create filters for the '2x4 HD': there are further tutorials on the "Applications" section of miniDSP's website. A miniDSP UMIK-1, down to 10 Hz calibrated measurement microphone, would be required + free REW software. There are miniDSP dealers in the EU, btw.

I am aware of that white phenomenon "issue"... just recently ordered dual 'Double Gem' in white from BK Electronics. If interested: as long as shipment of your order is started within this year, there will not be any import fees to your country; resulting from UK Brexit [as per "5.3 Customs status of goods" on page 14]. Everything that starts shipping in 2021 will be affected by additional customs etc. // For even higher output levels you could consider their 'P12-300SB-PR' as well [passive radiating]. Two of either would suffice in terms of SPL capabilities - else, add up to four. ^^

Edit: I forgot to mention, the white SVS subwoofers available from European dealers, like for DE/AT+CH are: SB-3000, SB-2000 Pro, SB-2000 and SB-1000. These options are not too bad, right?

[...] so, thinking if I should go all digital with Minidsp SHD as Genelec can take both digital and analog. [...]

Most subwoofers won't accept digital AES-EBU signals, unlike those from Genelec. So, in case of a 'SHD Studio', further DAC would be required down the signal path, prior to most subwoofers.

E. Retain SVS subs and AVR. SVS does a good job though - no complains. Just add a minidsp and make the current set up better. Live with this for some years and then do the AVR upgrade to a better one in 2-3 years.

Sounds great to me! That's about the time frame you need to figure out MSO etc. - just kidding. And maybe... get some white acoustic room treatment instead. // GIK Acoustics would be available in the EU - or DIY with preferably fiberglass material (quite inexpensive but there's no better material for the job!). A minimum of 5 cm [~2 in.] thickness for early reflection points and a minimum of 10 cm [~4 in.] for bass absorbers [which would go, e.g., behind your head(s) and straddling the corners]. If you leave an air gap [~2 cm would already do; much better up to ~8 cm where possible] to the flat surface behind any absorber, even better, as efficiency increases while sound waves pass the absorber(s) twice.

For the early reflection points on the glass front to the garden, there would exist free-standing acoustic panels. You would not require to place any on the other, open side of your living room. Further early reflection points would be exactly half-way between your three main loudspeakers and the respective listening position(s): on ceiling and floor [you could place a thick rug on the floor]. Furthermore, you would require absorption behind your head(s) on the rear wall ["hidden" by the curtains would be fine]. // Regarding bass absorbers, more is always better! Realistically speaking, covering as many of the 90° angles from wall-wall, wall-ceiling and wall-floor in your 'listening area' would be great. I know, this all is in theory - WAF always wins!

To cover the electrical plugs on the front wall, another bass-trap panel would just be suitable...

One question, how can I make the sub set up as single mono channel + add LPF to mains. I did not get this. Can you pls. help?

MSO has two basic options: one is to calibrate for integration with your main loudspeakers and one is for a separate subwoofers' optimization. There really is not just one way to get a nicely summed MONO subwoofer channel, properly crossed-over and time-aligned to your main loudspeakers + optionally, as an LFE channel for movies. It would certainly be beneficial to program two pre-sets, one for stereo music and one for movies/home theatre use.

Best of luck!

 

[Sprint]

As was previously mentioned, there is no disadvantage if your response is good without nulls. I have found that symmetrical placement for aesthetics seldom gives a good or optimal response. However, sometimes it does, and you simply need to measure to see if its an issue before you consider moving them. Luckily, measuring is cheap and fairly easy. Umik-1 mic for $100 and free download of REW. If your response is great...fantastic. If not, and you have nulls, you need to move one of the subs to fix it.

It does seem like the X3700 would be a great upgrade since it will without a doubt do a drastically better job correcting sub response. I've owned Yamaha with YPAO and measured before and after.....its bad.

The SB12 are decent for small inexpensive subs, but, IMO, you would benefit significantly with a pair of Rythmik E15HP or PSA S1512. IMO, the E15 will have a little more oomph on movies. Despite Rythmik being excellent on music, I think PSA has a small edge due to the pro drivers. I think either option will be a very significant upgrade over the SVS in all areas...output, distortion, sound quality, extension.

Thanks ! Is the sound signature between Denon 3700 and Yamaha AVR's different? I myself compared an older Denon with my AVR775. I did not like the sound signature of Denon. Yamaha had a warm signature which was amazing for movies. When I raised this in ASR, I was told that all AVRs have the same sound signature for e.g. Dolby 5.1. The only way to find if it has a different sound signature is to run both Denon and Yamaha in Pure Direct mode to see if there is any difference. I want to compare both myself. In Yamaha FB group, there was another one who compared Yamaha AVR 1080 with Denon (do not recollect the model) and had the same impression like mine. It seems there are many fans of Yamaha surround AI logic. Unfortunately, Yamaha did not measure well here in ASR though it needs to be seen if those defects are really audible. On the other hand, Denon 3700 has measured well here. But I am unable to learn on the sound signature as the measurements does not give me this information.

If this is really true, then my favourite is used Yamaha CX-a5100 as it has balanced outs and ESS DAC whereas my AVR775 has burr brown. I learnt ESS is the best. Not sure what Denon is using.

Concerning subs, both Rhythmik and PSA are super expensive to import to EU. So, I am restricted to what is available in EU also considering warranty and ease of repair.

 

[Sprint]

I am not familiar with 'Audyssey MultEQ XT32' but it is said to work quite well for bass management. On the less expensive side; with much better options for multiple-subwoofer integration and providing better results, you could add a miniDSP 2x4 HD just for the combined subwoofers' MONO channel - plugged to your current AVR. // Multi-Sub Optimizer (MSO) would allow to create filters for the '2x4 HD': there are further tutorials on the "Applications" section of miniDSP's website. A miniDSP UMIK-1, down to 10 Hz calibrated measurement microphone, would be required + free REW software. There are miniDSP dealers in the EU, btw.

I am aware of that white phenomenon "issue"... just recently ordered dual 'Double Gem' in white from BK Electronics. If interested: as long as shipment of your order is started within this year, there will not be any import fees to your country; resulting from UK Brexit [as per "5.3 Customs status of goods" on page 14]. Everything that starts shipping in 2021 will be affected by additional customs etc. // For even higher output levels you could consider their 'P12-300SB-PR' as well [passive radiating]. Two of either would suffice in terms of SPL capabilities - else, add up to four. ^^

Edit: I forgot to mention, the white SVS subwoofers available from European dealers, like for DE/AT+CH are: SB-3000, SB-2000 Pro, SB-2000 and SB-1000. These options are not too bad, right?

Thanks a lot for your detailed write up! I am now leaning towards minidsp 2x4HD. But there are two versions 2x4 and 2x4HD. The difference is Toslink connectivity. Am not sure if I would need that. Moreover, I am wondering if I need DIRAC for sub correction? In that case, I can first try without DIRAC and then do an upgrade. Hope both 2x4 and HD options support DIRAC upgrade.

Thanks for the info on BK Electronics subs. It seems to be very attractive. I will dive into this further to see if it fits.

Most subwoofers won't accept digital AES-EBU signals, unlike those from Genelec. So, in case of a 'SHD Studio', further DAC would be required down the signal path, prior to most subwoofers.

Agree. I would need another DAC, may be a cheaper one from Topping to convert AES into analog for subwoofer. But for 2ch music, do you also think that it will be better than my AVR?

Sounds great to me! That's about the time frame you need to figure out MSO etc. - just kidding. And maybe... get some white acoustic room treatment instead. // GIK Acoustics would be available in the EU - or DIY with preferably fiberglass material (quite inexpensive but there's no better material for the job!). A minimum of 5 cm [~2 in.] thickness for early reflection points and a minimum of 10 cm [~4 in.] for bass absorbers [which would go, e.g., behind your head(s) and straddling the corners]. If you leave an air gap [~2 cm would already do; much better up to ~8 cm where possible] to the flat surface behind any absorber, even better, as efficiency increases while sound waves pass the absorber(s) twice.

For the early reflection points on the glass front to the garden, there would exist free-standing acoustic panels. You would not require to place any on the other, open side of your living room. Further early reflection points would be exactly half-way between your three main loudspeakers and the respective listening position(s): on ceiling and floor [you could place a thick rug on the floor]. Furthermore, you would require absorption behind your head(s) on the rear wall ["hidden" by the curtains would be fine]. // Regarding bass absorbers, more is always better! Realistically speaking, covering as many of the 90° angles from wall-wall, wall-ceiling and wall-floor in your 'listening area' would be great. I know, this all is in theory - WAF always wins!

To cover the electrical plugs on the front wall, another bass-trap panel would just be suitable...

Great. I will look into GIK Acoustics. I met them in Munich HiEnd last year. They asked me to send REW files so that they can analyse and advice.

For the early reflections, free-standing acoustic panels seems to be a great choice. I will look into them as well. Today, I am using my floor chair. This is visible in my picture. This is already helping :-D.

Thanks again for all your help. By the way, since you noticed that one side of my listening area is open to dining. How does one calculate the room volume for subwoofer placement and subwoofer size determination. Does one count the open area or just the listening area.

 

[Sancus]

I did not like the sound signature of Denon. Yamaha had a warm signature which was amazing for movies. When I raised this in ASR, I was told that all AVRs have the same sound signature for e.g. Dolby 5.1.

Well that's correct, there's no such thing as "sound signature" for an AVR in normal operation. If there was, this graph wouldn't be almost dead flat across all frequencies. It's even flatter for Denon.

Where you may see audible differences is depending on what Audyssey does vs the(very poor) Yamaha room correction. However if you want a "warm" sound signature(or any sound signature for all, for that matter) you can simply buy the Audyssey MultEQ app and set your own target curve. That is much more effective than trying to buy electronics based on how they sound, as you can simply set the target curve to any sound you wish.

Edit: Wrong graph in first version, my bad, I shouldn't be awake at this hour...