S.M.S.L DA-9 vs AO200?

[pfgiv]

Your claim (if true) would turn every reviewer of High End gear into a blatant liar as they describe (subtle) differences in sound when reviewing and comparing amps (and speakers etc).

yes, that’s pretty much my point. Bias plays a large role in one’s subjectivity, ergo, why I asked if you have blind AB samples these class D amps against others neutral, low sinad, powerful enough amps regardless of which topology class they are. Remember, you made a claim saying that all cheap class D amps have a problem in the mids.

Plenty of people say X type of amp sounds like this and Y type of amp sounds like that. But in blind tests they can’t tell the difference or get things wrong.

Speakers are a different category because they literally produce the sound you’re hearing. They will sound different.

This is an industry with a lot of money involved. Does it really seem improbable that people make wild claims that don’t hold up under scientific scrutiny? Check out the link below.

Read the first reply here

 

[RandomEar]

Interesting read and I agree being human, not a robot, but I don’t think that will nullify my opinion. Reducing bass and treble doesn’t equal increasing the mids because this isn’t done linearly as it should (in this unit AO200 at least).

Everybody has the right to have an opinion. Maybe you're right on this one, maybe I am right, maybe we're both wrong. That's difference between opinions and facts. And science tries to eliminate opinions and subjectiveness and tries to uncover the hidden facts behind observations.

Concering the non-linear stuff in the EQ: I don't know what you mean by that. Do you refer to the form of the EQ curve? In any case, this is more of a technicality.

Your claim (if true) would turn every reviewer of High End gear into a blatant liar as they describe (subtle) differences in sound when reviewing and comparing amps (and speakers etc).
Every engineer/designer of audiophile gear fine-tunes the sonic character to the ideal of that brand. On one side this could be analytical and cool vs. neutral vs. rich and warm (and anything in between). So it’s easy to tell apart gear that is on the opposite sides of tonality. But tonality is not the only trait of an amp. There will also its imaging assessed and its dynamic capabilities and more. All these traits shape into a sonic character that will either please you or not, based on your personal listening preferences and the other gear it has to work with.

I wouldn't say they're liars. First of all, they're "victims" of their own bias. The reviewers want to and have to believe that there are differences, because if there weren't any, they would be out of their jobs. That's a strong motivation to keep that fairy tale alive. Also, to be fair: In the 60s, 70s and maybe up to the mid 80s, you would probably have had a fair chance to discern low- and mid-class amps by their sound in a blind test. But today, I think that would be much, much more difficult.

Concerning the engineers: I'm positive that they work with measurements and base their decisions on science and engineering. That's what they're trained to do and what they have studies for years. In the end, they'll probably do a listening check just to avoid any unpleasant surprises. The sales and marketing guys will of course tell you the opposite: "Our engineers tuned this amp to perfection just by listening. Ears are the best tool! This amp has the typical warm and cosy house sound of brand XY! We only use 100% breast-fed capacitors - everybody knows they are the best!" - I think those messages are what people spending a couple of grand want to hear and it's what sells the gear. It makes the gear feel special, makes it stand out from the masses. I'm extremely skeptical of this marketing gibberish, because I haven't seen any proof for any such statement, yet.

 

[Steamrolly]

Yes, further down the line, I want to add the DO200. But will wait for the price to come down a bit.

If you want a balanced DAC sooner, to pair with your AO200, you may want to consider the DO100 that Amir just reviewed.

 

[Steamrolly]

I tend to disagree. This little class D amp suffers of the same deficits like all the cheap class D amps; while highs and lows are OK it’s the mids that are problematic: voices are too thin and guitars have not enough body.

A friend of mine had similar complaints about his Class AB receiver. Mids were being decimated by the bass, it sounded like the vocals were way in the back and everything was focused on the bass. I brought him a new pair of speakers to try, problem fixed. Just saying...
Sorry, I tend to disagree with your assessment. Yes, I am Canadian !

 

[Goodsound]

A friend of mine had similar complaints about his Class AB receiver. Mids were being decimated by the bass, it sounded like the vocals were way in the back and everything was focused on the bass. I brought him a new pair of speakers to try, problem fixed. Just saying...
Sorry, I tend to disagree with your assessment. Yes, I am Canadian !

I try to read between the lines to pick up the important message. It’s true that I should have revealed with which speakers I paired the AO200 to conclude why it was disappointing to me, to provide you context. It was an Infinity Reference 60. And yes, speaker/amp pairing is more delicate than considering only the watts. The Infinitys sounded better (more balanced) with a Rotel RB-980BX class AB amplifier (which is only 10 Watts more per channel than the AO200). It also depends on what kind of music I usually listen to, because I mentioned voice reproduction. If I would listen only to EDM I’d probably prefer the crispier AO200. And furthermore, is here a noob writing or a seasoned audiophile? I consider myself being part of the latter group. All gear used was part of my setup 2. Setup 1 being the more expensive/audiophile one and being my reference (MSB „The Analog“ Streamer/DAC, Linn Akurate Amp with Martin Logan speakers). And finally my own personal sonic preference which obviously is not analytic/cold sounding.
Do you get great value for your money with this little amp? Yes
Will it satisfy all audiophiles? No

 

[Steamrolly]

I try to read between the lines to pick up the important message...

You got it. It was only about 6 years ago that I realized how much impact a speaker can have on a system, my focus had always been on the source. And as you mention the type of music or more importantly the quality of recording also has an impact. I currently have my AO200 paired with Mission LX-5 speakers which are full range (3 way) speakers I and find they work very well together. I also have a NAD C316 BEE kicking around which I found to be to bass heavy on the same speakers. I have read that the NAD is designed to have fuller bass (I could be wrong) possibly their expectation is people buying the C316 will be typically pairing it with bookshelf speakers that have more limited bass reproduction. So many variables.

 

[damirj79]

SMSL AO200 is rated as:
Output power
2x 150W @ 2Ω
2x 90W @ 4Ω
2x 50W @ 8Ω

Does it really work with 2ohm loudspeakers or does it have any issues with that? How is the power supply dimensioned to handle power output at 2x 150W ?

 

[Papaya_X]

Is anyone having an issue where DA-9 loses its memory?
After turn unit on/off using remote (standby) all settings are lost, I have to manually setup everything (brightness/input/volume etc.)
I already did factory reset but it didn't help.
Any ideas? @SMSL-Mandy @SMSL_Liu

Hey I have the same problem.

Everytime I shutdown the unit all my settings are wiped. But instead of occuring when I'm using the remote, it is only when I shutdown the unit from the power button on its back. Did you find a solution about that ? My DO200 don't do that.
It's very recent by the way, because I use to shutdown my unit completly everyday and it didn't do that before.

In my opinion, it's a hardware problem and my unit will probably go back to the manufacturer under warranty.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

Hey I have the same problem.

Everytime I shutdown the unit all my settings are wiped. But instead of occuring when I'm using the remote, it is only when I shutdown the unit from the power button on its back. Did you find a solution about that ? My DO200 don't do that.
It's very recent by the way, because I use to shutdown my unit completly everyday and it didn't do that before.

In my opinion, it's a hardware problem and my unit will probably go back to the manufacturer under warranty.

No, I gave up and sold the unit with this minor malfunction.
China products reliability is a joke....

 

[v1adpetrov2]

Hello everyone!
A thorough analysis of the insides of both amplifiers showed that from a technical point of view, these are ABSOLUTELY identical models!
The power supply is the same: MORNSUN LOF225-20B24.
The chipset and operational amplifiers are the same.
The power capacitors that ensure the rocking of the speakers are the same and have a capacity of 2200 uF.
The only difference is that the DA-9 is equipped with a full-fledged Qualcomm QCC3008 aptX LL Bluetooth chip, and the AO200 is equipped with a poor JieLi AC690x Bluetooth chip.

These amplifiers only have different housings and (probably) the nuances of the firmware.

 

[Toku]

Hello everyone!
A thorough analysis of the insides of both amplifiers showed that from a technical point of view, these are ABSOLUTELY identical models!
The power supply is the same: MORNSUN LOF225-20B24.
The chipset and operational amplifiers are the same.
The power capacitors that ensure the rocking of the speakers are the same and have a capacity of 2200 uF.
The only difference is that the DA-9 is equipped with a full-fledged Qualcomm QCC3008 aptX LL Bluetooth chip, and the AO200 is equipped with a poor JieLi AC690x Bluetooth chip.

These amplifiers only have different housings and (probably) the nuances of the firmware.

View attachment 233016 View attachment 233017

From the beginning, I knew that the DA-9 and AO200 had the same internal configuration. However, I purchased two of each model and tested them for comparison, but the stability of operation is different. AO200 is definitely better.

 

[v1adpetrov2]

From the beginning, I knew that the DA-9 and AO200 had the same internal configuration. However, I purchased two of each model and tested them for comparison, but the stability of operation is different. AO200 is definitely better.

Then indeed, the AO200 firmware got rid of DA-9 errors.
And it pleases!

 

[RandomEar]

Hello everyone!
A thorough analysis of the insides of both amplifiers showed that from a technical point of view, these are ABSOLUTELY identical models!
The power supply is the same: MORNSUN LOF225-20B24.
The chipset and operational amplifiers are the same.
The power capacitors that ensure the rocking of the speakers are the same and have a capacity of 2200 uF.
The only difference is that the DA-9 is equipped with a full-fledged Qualcomm QCC3008 aptX LL Bluetooth chip, and the AO200 is equipped with a poor JieLi AC690x Bluetooth chip.

These amplifiers only have different housings and (probably) the nuances of the firmware.

View attachment 233016 View attachment 233017

I was a bit surpirsed to read this, as the THD+N data I extracted from SMSL measurements seemed to be vastly different for the DA-9 and AO200. But I've taken another look and - as far as I can tell - found an error, where I missed a zero in the axis scaling. The now correctly extracted data looks like this:

And it certainly underlines your discovery, that the hardware on these amps is essentially identical.

Data sources:

• DA-9:
  

  DA-9

  Foshan ShuangMuSanLin electronics Co., LTD. founded in 2009 which located in Shenzhen, China. And our branch company VMV Technology(HK) Company Limited registered in HK in 2013. Our company is specialized in the audio DAC, stereo headphone amplifier, power amplifier, and with own R&D...

  www.smsl-audio.com
• AO200:
  
  

  SMSL AO200 Digital Amplifier

  SMSL AO200 Digital Amplifier

  aoshida-audio.com
• NC122MP:
  
  https://www.hypex.nl/documenten/download/902
• PA5:
  
  

  Topping PA5 Review (Amplifier)

  This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping PA5 stereo desktop amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $349. PA5 enclosure looks like their standard DACs and such: Hard to imagine that an amplifier can fit in the same size but here we are. There are large...

  www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[panther]

So far I have had no complaints with the SMSL AO200 with either Dali Menuets or Triangle Comete speakers. Easily enough for a small office. I honestly was really impressed so far with the onboard DAC. I am even wondering what I am going to gain from an external DAC. I've considered the DO200 mk 2, Schiit Modius or Bifrost 2. I don't know what I would audibly really try and key in on if I was going to try one out. Fantastic amp.

 

[robca]

Does anyone know what is the USB DAC chip inside the AO200? Any hope to get a picture of the chip used?

 

[Lednek]

Does anyone know what is the USB DAC chip inside the AO200? Any hope to get a picture of the chip used?

I wish I knew. I can tell you that if I had it my way the A0200 would have no DAC or Bluetooth. I wish it weren't trying to be a all in one solution. That being said it sounds really good as an integrated amplifier, paired with a D0100 DAC. I would love to see this drop shipped to Amir for measurement if you end up purchasing.(nudge, nudge) I wish I would have had it on my radar when I bought it.

 

[Toku]

Does anyone know what is the USB DAC chip inside the AO200? Any hope to get a picture of the chip used?

Generally, the digital input of amplifier products is realized by BT module.
The BT module has a built-in DAC function to convert the received digital signal into an analog signal.
Normally, this DAC function is structured so that not only BT but also external digital signals can be input.
However, unlike a general DAC chip, the DAC function is simple and the performance is inferior.
So please treat the digital input of Chinese amplifier products as a bonus. The AO200's USB input is also D/A converted by this BT module.
The BT module used in the AO200 is a new Chinese-developed Zhuhai Jieli AC690X. Unfortunately there is no detailed information about this BT chip.
Most digital inputs using BT modules only support sampling rates of 44.1/48kHz.

 

[jonUK]

I've owned this amp for a few months now. I read quite a few complaints about the USB stability through Amazon reviews of the AO200 amp. People complaining of various glitches when connecting to a computer over USB. I thought it was quite a strange choice to go with a USB-A to USB-A connection for connecting it to a PC. USB-A on a device, I would normally associate with plugging in media storage directly - which would be fine, but it doesn't seem to have any logic in the interface for reading and selecting tracks etc.

Personally I bought it with no intention of ever using the USB or Bluetooth functionality and was always going to use a separate DAC - and I've been happy with it in that capacity - sounds great to my ears. I did briefly test the Bluetooth connection and it was OK - it worked, but didn't sound as good as through my DAC which supports LDAC etc. The Bluetooth seems to be in an "always on" state too, regardless of input selection and indeed whether the amp is fully on, or in standby. The result is if you ever pair a device with it, it will keep re-connecting whenever your in range of the amp, until you unpair them.

 

[robca]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Not promising, I have to say, but it all makes sense.

If anyone has the AO200 connected to a computer, would it be possible to see what sampling rate and bit number the device supports? In Windows, it can be tested by going into the Sound settings, Device properties, Additional properties in this dialog

As for using a separate DAC, if I decided to go that way, I'd use then a dedicated power amplifier. With an integrated amplifier, you pay for unused functionality and inevitably you have compromises on sound due to the extra circuitry

 

[Toku]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Not promising, I have to say, but it all makes sense.

If anyone has the AO200 connected to a computer, would it be possible to see what sampling rate and bit number the device supports? In Windows, it can be tested by going into the Sound settings, Device properties, Additional properties in this dialog

View attachment 277502

As for using a separate DAC, if I decided to go that way, I'd use then a dedicated power amplifier. With an integrated amplifier, you pay for unused functionality and inevitably you have compromises on sound due to the extra circuitry

In the case of USB connection of AO200, if you open the device properties, only "2 channel 16bit 48000Hz (DVD quality)" will be displayed fixedly. No other selection is possible.
Therefore, all files are resampled to 16Bit/48kHz and output from USB.
But the sound quality from USB is not so bad. The sound quality is sufficient as a bonus function.