SMSL SU-10 DAC Review

[mctron]

Am I wrong, or the 2x price compared to the previous products, is a bit "out of tune"? I mean they risk do not sell to much of them.

There are different price brackets for different types of consumers, I would think. People who are going to buy this one are not crunching SINAD per dollar

 

[alekksander]

not worth it. skipping.

 

[JustJones]

So the old 12v trigger is still not something seen as worthwhile? Stick to Benchmark who understands you might be driving an amplifier with these products with volume control.

 

[Spocko]

I say something that may be a little annoying here. But for me, with so many absolutely transparent dacs already at 100 euros or less, spending more than 500 euros for this feature set (let's go 900) makes no sense, but I repeat FOR ME.
Many times I have had the trivial need to connect two spdif or two coaxial inputs, it is nonsense but only the dx3pro + (which in fact I bought) had two coaxial inputs.
The research of the last sinad decibel paying 6X for a product that has the same functions and is equally transparent does not appeal to me.
The review is fine, the panther is fine, praising engineering is fine, but does this direction of technological development make sense?
If at the same price they had given me a dac with the performance of the Topping E30 but with a pair of inputs of all kinds, with a performing equalization software, with one or two analog inputs to be able to use it at 360 degrees as a preamp.
But right now anyone who already has pretty much any balanced dac 110 sinad and up would upgrade just for the personal pleasure of doing so, replace their unit with this gorgeous, flamboyant new, and their music would be EXACTLY the same to their ears.

Agreed - I've been saying this countless times before. DAC companies who are in the blue on Amir's chart should just stop any further SINAD improvements and focus their engineering attention on usability:

• More input/output options
• Better UI and ergonomics (buttons, switches, knobs, etc)
• EQ features and room correction options
• Streaming convenience, etc.

I'd rather pay an extra $300 for the above than yet another "record breaking SINAD measurement" stuffed into a perfunctory box with the bare minimum of features carried over from similar black boxes by other makers.

 

[xnor]

Is there much audible differences between Fast1 and Fast3 filters?
The 23.6kHz hump should be inaudible and their website graphs do not depict any waveform differences.
View attachment 238323
View attachment 238325

Let's ignore the audiophile BS...
From the name alone filter 3 should be the minimum phase version of filter 1 and therefore cause a huge phase shift that will extend well below 20 kHz.
I think their time domain image for filter 3 is simply wrong.

 

[anphex]

If you use a computer just install Equalizer APO and enjoy unlimited filter capacities (including FIR with nearly unlimited Taps)

This is my current setup but it chains me to my computer, which isn't necessarily bad, but in case I want to use my TV I have to fall back to my AVR.

 

[ahofer]

I wish more of these a) were Roon endpoints for streaming and b) incorporated optional dynamic loudness control like RME.

 

[GXAlan]

This is it.

Is there a way to sum the left and right channels of the APx555 to gain better numbers along with running some averaging?

 

[xnor]

I wonder what the mfg's will do now.... I mean if everything is SOTA then we have to find new ways to differentiate products? Really no idea..
Maybe when you aren't so busy (if that ever happens) new testing ideas can be brainstormed in order to differentiate products... amazing that we have come to this point in only a few short years.

I guess by "SOTA" you mean hitting arbitrary points that are magnitudes beyond hearing limits?
Why do you think everything has reached those points? It's not the case and will not be for years. Manufacturers that use measurements for product differentiation will either choose cheaper parts that have worse measurements or they will degrade the measurements by deliberate measurement-worsening part or design choices.
And it's not like those arbitrary points are set in stone. I'm sure that they will move over time...

Besides that, a huge part of the industry doesn't care about measurements at all. Ironically this is relevant for non-audiophile customers that just need a product that outputs something that ends up as sound waves, and the confused audiophiles that have elevated their biases and cognitively distorted hearing beyond any kind of measurement. (Which has the huge advantage that these biases are endless, or to quote someone from a different forum where are lot of these confused people post: "[experience of] audio [due to cognitive biases] is infinite", so you can waste a lifetime and several fortunes in the quest of building the best system which really is just chasing your own tail.)

 

[RichT]

Yes this thing is great, stellar review Amir! I'll buy the SMSL D-6 for $170, audio value is what I'm after. Regards

 

[mctron]

Agreed - I've been saying this countless times before. DAC companies who are in the blue on Amir's chart should just stop any further SINAD improvements and focus their engineering attention on usability:

• More input/output options
• Better UI and ergonomics (buttons, switches, knobs, etc)
• EQ features and room correction options
• Streaming convenience, etc.

I'd rather pay an extra $300 for the above than yet another "record breaking SINAD measurement" stuffed into a perfunctory box with the bare minimum of features carried over from similar black boxes by other makers.

Why stop there? They should add an amp and put it into a speaker too

 

[ocinn]

A lot of people in this thread asking for Topping/SMSL to dive headfirst into a market they have no history or infrastructure in, and invest huge development costs to create applications and firmware for EQ/ARC control, etc, and maintain hyper-competitive pricing.

What we should really be asking for is a TOTL ADC/DAC upgrade of a Minidsp SHD/Flex etc with a resistor-ladder-controlled master volume output section to maximize performance at lower levels. Maybe give the option to throw a headphone amp in there and have the jack sensor trigger a DSP profile switch/bypass so you can go from a Dirac speaker profile to a headphone corrective EQ.

None of these things would add significant costs (relative to what a company like SMSL/Topping would need to spend/increase product MSRP to develop and break into a completely different product type from what they have been making). And all of us that are already used to an intuitive and proven company software and community ecosystem would need zero adjustment period.

Another idea is an RME model with a Dirac license and another two DAC channels, and the features I mentioned above, but I'd assume that would probably cost more/be more difficult to pull off than if MiniDSP did it.

I find it absurd that there is ANY DAC over $300 with adjustable output level that does not have analog volume attenuation to keep it from nuking S/N at low levels. If you want to make the argument that it is inaudible, etc, that's one thing. But these DAC's have been fighting tooth and nail for 0.25 of an inaudible SINAD point just to overlook the average consumer that is using it to drive powered speakers or power amps is going to set it to -35db in the digital domain and all of that bleeding edge performance gets thrown out of the window.

I would not be surprised if my ancient $150 used Emotiva XDA-2 that has trickled down and ended up at my desk in the office would actually would outperform these SINAD-race dacs at low output levels, solely because it has a digitally controlled analog resistor ladder output stage.

 

[srkbear]

I haven't done the math but I think we are at the wall.

This is a rather monumental statement that I think raises some important considerations for consumers. I have the Topping d90se, based on your recommendations here, and I remain happy as can be with it. Yet I keep coming back looking for achievements like this unit here—I’m surely entertained by the process of watching each new offering from Topping, SMSL and Gustard squeeze out another few decimals of SINAD, but does it really mean anything beyond academic interest? Have we really closed the book on DA conversion technology if not even your SOTA measuring rig can detect differences now?

If our ears can’t detect differences at this point, then isn’t SMSL selling a bit of snake oil by adding an extra ES9038pro in this box and charging an extra $200 for something extraneous? If USB 2.0 connections are more than adequate to cover the bandwidth required for the highest resolutions of digital samples, then does USB 3.0 or USB C really offer any practical advantages, other than seeming more modern and sophisticated?

And if our existing limits of sampling rates already exceed our ability to discern the difference between analog masters and their digital facsimiles, then what’s the future of digital audio? What frontier haven’t we crossed?

 

[Toni Mas]

What amaze me is how many variations of the same products these companies manage to spit out each years. Not in term of developpment, adding a second chip and an extra USB port is near zero in term of developpment cost based on the building blocks and PCB files they already have, can probably be done in a week, but in term of tooling, to be able to be financially viable to keep coming up with new enclosures and designs without canibalizing themselve and break even on the other competing products inside their own. brand, and other brands, is where I am baffled. The market must be much much larger than I would have tought to be able to pull that off. That’s what impress me. Not so much the engineering, really this have been engineered years ago, it’s very minimal, a couple little tweaks, an extra chip, and there you go you have an other product. why not take a step back. Spend a couple years, and take the time to design something that have something to add to the table in term of features? Don’t worry SMSL, you can still sell that in 2-3 years and no one will notice your DAC chip is a few years old. Transparent is transparent. This one is not more so than last year one.

Yes, keep calm and no need to launch so much so fast so often ... I have plenty of gear bought the last ten years or more, that is not so bad and i still want to enjoy

 

[EXIF68]

This is a very nice device and could’ be a replacement for my older Benchmark DAC2D. But there is one thing: Headphone output is missing.
A separate headphone amp is not that part i‚m looking for. But on the other hand: the benchmark is sounding great. The data are a little bit weaker but who cares?

 

[Toni Mas]

Agreed - I've been saying this countless times before. DAC companies who are in the blue on Amir's chart should just stop any further SINAD improvements and focus their engineering attention on usability:

• More input/output options
• Better UI and ergonomics (buttons, switches, knobs, etc)
• EQ features and room correction options
• Streaming convenience, etc.

I'd rather pay an extra $300 for the above than yet another "record breaking SINAD measurement" stuffed into a perfunctory box with the bare minimum of features carried over from similar black boxes by other makers.

Sinad for sinad sake is getting dead boring...

 

[xnor]

If our ears can’t detect differences at this point, then isn’t SMSL selling a bit of snake oil by adding an extra ES9038pro in this box and charging an extra $200 for something extraneous?

Hold on. Let's stop after the first comma: at this point? Reality check: audibly transparent conversion under normal usage has been reached many years ago and is available for a few dollars nowadays.
If there had been audible differences up to this point then we could have relied on (blind) listening tests instead of measurements all along and those listening tests would have all cross-confirmed the measurements. There also would not be such a divide between scientifically minded and subjectivist audiophiles.

How is selling something that is advertised to measure better (and does so) at a premium snake oil, regardless of the fact that there are no audible differences?
Unless the manufacturer makes the claim that under normal listening conditions there are actually audible differences, I don't see how it would be.

And if our existing limits of sampling rates already exceed our ability to discern the difference between analog masters and their digital facsimiles, then what’s the future of digital audio? What frontier haven’t we crossed?

Sampling rates and bit depth never were an issue. The loudness war (which could have been ended decades ago with a simple solution), bad recording, bad mixing, bad mastering and bad musicians/singers are.
While 48/96 kHz do have some advantages, the industry obviously pushed "HD audio" to be able to resell you "HD ready" components and "HD music".

Currently, 13/17 bit lossy MQA that doesn't even compress better than lossless codecs at equivalent bit depth is being pushed, so that manufacturers can resell you "MQA ready" components and services/labels can resell you the same songs in a mangled form. And people fall for it, happily pay the extra fee.


What will the future be? Are you asking for something that actually makes a difference like object-based audio or the next MQA scam?

 

[pseudoid]

...then what’s the future of digital audio? What frontier haven’t we crossed?

When some uS engineers were showcasing/demo'ing Win3.0 GUI to some other engineers; I recall going "pfffft, who needs a GUI when I need memory and speed!"
I recall "perfect sound for ever" when CDs were introduced.
I now stopped trying to predict the future, and retired my crystal ball, that was fuzzy from the getgo!

I don't ask, and I don't guess. For all I know, music will come in pill form << YMMV

 

[JRG123]

Upgrade the remote. How many of you would accept this crappy remote with any other mainstream piece of equipement. TV? Receiver? Bluray? They all come with something nice regardless of the price. This device is reaching the 1K range, put some quality accesories in the box

 

[HE-dbtr]

This will sell for close to $1,000 after sales tax in the US. Who can service the product after the warranty period ends?