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KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

harkpabst

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Isn’t Uni-Core directly addressing ‘no replacement for displacement’ through the different sized voice coils to get higher excursion?
Yes and no. But actually more no than yes. ;)

Uni-Core doesn't allow "higher excursion" per se. It just allows to keep a given level of excursion at muss less width.

Two non Uni-Core woofers in back to back force cancellation setup can have the exact same excursion with traditional voice coils and pole pieces.
 
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brandall10

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The average hifi buyer is completely unaware of this as the home audio market has resisted this change for years.

Are D&D and Kii too small of a presence? I feel like they lanced this area of the market (or rather, a bit above) and built massive respect in the process years ago.

And of course at a more entry-level the LS50W did this 6 years ago... at $2500 for bookshelfs, they're aptly priced above what could be seen as lifestyle products, right? It always seemed the original LS50 were considered a solid entry-level hifi staple and the wireless update surfaced very similar discussion at the time.
 
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sifi36

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Are D&D and Kii too small of a presence? I feel like they lanced this area of the market (or rather, a bit above) and built massive respect in the process years ago.

And of course at a more entry-level the LS50W did this 6 years ago... at $2500 for bookshelfs, they're aptly priced above what could be seen as lifestyle products, right? It always seemed the original LS50 were considered a solid entry-level hifi staple and the wireless update surfaced very similar discussion at the time.

Whilst I have a lot of respect for what both Kii and Dutch and Dutch have produced, I’d be shocked if they even have a fraction of a percent in the high end bookshelf market. One only needs to look at the size of their dealer network to work that out. If they’re not in the shops then they won’t be getting their brand out there and winning mindshare.

If you’re a dealer, why sell someone something when you can sell them something else with a load of high margin accessories (amps, preamps, sources, cables and power conditioners) to go with it? I wonder how much of the recent price increases for both of them are a way to perhaps up dealer margins as opposed to a response to the current (hideous levels of) inflation.

On the other point, I think a lot of people will change their minds once they’ve heard them, just like the LS50 wireless.
 

Dbassist

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Yes and no. But actually more nonthan yes. ;)

Uni-Core doesn't allow "higher excursion" per se. It just allows to keep a given level of excursion at muss less width.

Two non Uni-Core woofers in back to back force cancellation setup can have the exact same excursion with traditional voice coils and pole pieces.

I often write stream of consciousness. I did mean ‘for a given depth.’

But it is what Uni-Core addresses, at the end if the day. A single magnet could be used with two equally sized voice coils, but the excursion would understandably be limited. Uni-Core solves that with the differently sized voice coils. So it is more yes than no, purely because an alternative which focuses only on depth reduction without sorting out the compromise can exist.
 

brandall10

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Whilst I have a lot of respect for what both Kii and Dutch and Dutch have produced, I’d be shocked if they even have a fraction of a percent in the high end bookshelf market. One only needs to look at the size of their dealer network to work that out. If they’re not in the shops then they won’t be getting their brand out there and winning mindshare.

While that may be true, they have 1) a ton of journalistic ink 2) a bunch of online chatter and 3) priced out of reach for most audiophiles. They're aspirational products for many.

I haven't owned or listened to them, but I'm well aware of what they are and how they are regarded. Enough that I certainly don't question why larger companies wouldn't take a similar path for their flagships.
 

raest

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Dictated by marketing. An engineer would have choosen a speaker that is a few mm less slim.
everything was explained. you're spreading lies and misinformation. why are you doing this?
Consider why almost all good tweeters are about 1 inch.
that's not true. also, most bad tweeters are about 1 inch. what was your point again? that you do not know what driver size means? i think we get it...
Now ponder why this one is smaller and why that tradeoff was made.
if only there was a whitepaper of some sort, and maybe even some interviews with the lead technical designer around so there would be no need to ponder... wouldn't that be nice?

but i guess this doesn't have very high scores in pointless inaudible metrics so it's of no interest to you
 

Vacceo

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Are D&D and Kii too small of a presence? I feel like they lanced this area of the market (or rather, a bit above) and built massive respect in the process years ago.

And of course at a more entry-level the LS50W did this 6 years ago... at $2500 for bookshelfs, they're aptly priced above what could be seen as lifestyle products, right? It always seemed the original LS50 were considered a solid entry-level hifi staple and the wireless update surfaced very similar discussion at the time.
I wonder, considering previous posts, can the hardware and software from the 50WII and 60 'upload' the filters and data from a room eq system? It could be Dirac or Audyssey, but is it even possible internally?
 

samysound

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I think one point of contention is that the entre design appears to have been driven by heavy constraint on width of the speaker. While a lot of fantastic tech was used to optimize the acoustic performance, a small increase in width (coupled with all the great dsp optimization) might have allowed for considerable increase in output and acoustic performance.
 

zen87192

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I've pressed the button on a pair of White LS60's.... delivery will be somewhere around the end of June into the beginning of July. looking forward to receiving them and will be pleased to offer my thoughts on this forum for all who are interested to hear about them or may be thinking of buying them.
 

Vacceo

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I've pressed the button on a pair of White LS60's.... delivery will be somewhere around the end of June into the beginning of July. looking forward to receiving them and will be pleased to offer my thoughts on this forum for all who are interested to hear about them or may be thinking of buying them.
I am so tempted to ask you to test them with some Death in June just for the fun of the name...

Let us know how they work on your space!
 

samysound

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I've pressed the button on a pair of White LS60's.... delivery will be somewhere around the end of June into the beginning of July. looking forward to receiving them and will be pleased to offer my thoughts on this forum for all who are interested to hear about them or may be thinking of buying them.
were there any other speakers you were also considering before you pulled the trigger on the LS60?
 

harkpabst

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I often write stream of consciousness. I did mean ‘for a given depth.’

But it is what Uni-Core addresses, at the end if the day. A single magnet could be used with two equally sized voice coils, but the excursion would understandably be limited. Uni-Core solves that with the differently sized voice coils. So it is more yes than no, purely because an alternative which focuses only on depth reduction without sorting out the compromise can exist.
Thanks for the additional info ;), but still Uni-Core is not a technology to increase excursion over traditional designs. There is no practical implementation in existence that would use a unified magnet structure but identical voice coil diameters. Only if this was the case Uni-Core could be considered to extend excursion. So, as it is it was invented to reduce the overall width of the woofer assembly without sacrificing excursion.

To be honest, I am absolutely sure that dozens and dozens of speaker designers came up with the same basic idea before but refused to even evaluate it. If somebody had asked me if using different voice coil diameters was feasible I would have refused it right away. Read the white paper on LS60 Wireless and you will find that even KEF had almost buried the idea. They certainly deserve highest respect for not giving up, finding out that many of the expected problems were really non-issues and finally turning it into commercial products. I regard Uni-Core as a pretty sensational achievement.

While that may be true, they have 1) a ton of journalistic ink 2) a bunch of online chatter and 3) priced out of reach for most audiophiles. They're aspirational products for many.

I haven't owned or listened to them, but I'm well aware of what they are and how they are regarded. Enough that I certainly don't question why larger companies wouldn't take a similar path for their flagships.
All true and well. But that still doesn't make them "the home audio market" in the sense referred to by @sifi36. As you say they are aspirational products but most consumers consider stupid stuff like Sonos as being "innovative" ...

I wonder, considering previous posts, can the hardware and software from the 50WII and 60 'upload' the filters and data from a room eq system? It could be Dirac or Audyssey, but is it even possible internally?
Absolutely no reason why it shouldn't be possible. It's a DSP and as such in can be programmed. I wouldn't be surprised at all if KEF came up with their very own solution in the not too far future.

I think one point of contention is that the entre design appears to have been driven by heavy constraint on width of the speaker. While a lot of fantastic tech was used to optimize the acoustic performance, a small increase in width (coupled with all the great dsp optimization) might have allowed for considerable increase in output and acoustic performance.
I have to disagree wholeheartedly. :) Bigger drivers aren't better just because they are bigger, it's really not that simple. It's kind of funny how many people have been begging for "Baby Blades". Well, here they are. Featuring a fantastic new smaller Uni-Q driver array. Why do you disregard the advantages this smaller array provides?
 
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abdo123

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I think one point of contention is that the entre design appears to have been driven by heavy constraint on width of the speaker. While a lot of fantastic tech was used to optimize the acoustic performance, a small increase in width (coupled with all the great dsp optimization) might have allowed for considerable increase in output and acoustic performance.

Personally I don't think so.

This speaker is capable of 110dBSPL @ 1m @ 100Hz. This is the perfect amount of output for subwoofer integration, and below that the output is pretty decent for music listening (96dBSPL @ 50Hz).

Any output signficantly greater than this would require exponentially larger surface area, with big emphasis on exponentially. It would very quickly get out of hand the moment you decide on aiming for more (low frequency) output.
 

Vacceo

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Absolutely no reason why it shouldn't be possible. It's a DSP and as such in can be programmed. I wouldn't be surprised at all if KEF came up with their very own solution in the not too far future.
So if it is hardware-possible, then it´s just a matter of the Kef mages to chant their code-hymns to open the system to be eq-ed. I don´t know how many resources Kef allocates to software developers, so chances are they could externalize it to Dirac (they seem to be quite willing to work with manufacturers of any kind) as it would cover both the speakers and the subwoofer integration, so branching to other products already availible may actually help them selling those too.

Dirac is also quite popular and there´s a ton of guides and very specialized individuals who can art magic with it. Personally, I like Arc better doe to insane ease of use, but that is a Martin-Logan/Anthem/Paradigm thing and it does not sound too likely that they want to license to the direct competence.
 

samysound

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Personally I don't think so.

This speaker is capable of 110dBSPL @ 1m @ 100Hz. This is the perfect amount of output for subwoofer integration, and below that the output is pretty decent for music listening (96dBSPL @ 50Hz).

Any output signficantly greater than this would require exponentially larger surface area, with big emphasis on exponentially. It would very quickly get out of hand the moment you decide on aiming for more (low frequency) output.
Hi
Just to clarify I believe the spl values quoted in the white paper are for a pair of speakers, not a single speaker. I suspect distortion vs spl and Loudnes curves showing dynamic EQ are all for a pair of speakers as well
 

abdo123

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Hi
Just to clarify I believe the spl values quoted in the white paper are for a pair of speakers, not a single speaker. I suspect distortion vs spl and Loudnes curves showing dynamic EQ are all for a pair of speakers as well
Why would you assume so?

Four 5.25 inch drivers would only need 3mm of excursion to generate 110dBSPL @ 1 meter @ 100Hz.

Even without distortion cancelling feedback voodoo that’s quite feasible.
 

Purité Audio

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We are going to get some here, I will give you an honest assessment, 60’s versus 50’s with KC62 and then 60’s/sub versus GGNTKT and kii/8cs.
Listening distance between 2/3 metres.
Keith
 

samysound

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Why would you assume so?

Four 5.25 inch drivers would only need 3mm of excursion to generate 110dBSPL @ 1 meter @ 100Hz.

Even without distortion cancelling feedback voodoo that’s quite feasible.
Hi
I asked KEF if the max spl value was quoted for a pair vs single speaker via email. Their response was that it was for a pair.

I send another email to ask the same question about the distortion data and IBX curves as well. Stay tuned…
 
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