PS Audio FR30 speakers

[amirm]

I'd rather not know the result and experience the hate.

Literally hundreds of people have sent me gear that did not perform well. Every one of them has still appreciated knowing that than walking around blindly recommending what they own. It forms their future purchase decisions. Some go as far as feeling bad about selling those units to unsuspecting audiophiles.

If you take objective data about the performance of your audio gear personally, you need some serious soul searching about how you have gotten to this point.

 

[Ron Texas]

ASR has tested a lot of speakers, but hardly any current consumer models and virtually none with any WAF. That's apparent from the review index - hardly anything above $1,000 that doesn't come from Harman. Even if I lived next door to Amir and was a happy owner of a Sonus Faber speaker, I don't think I'd lend it to him. I'd rather not know the result and experience the hate. My dealer stocks them, told me they have huge wife acceptance, but not to listen to them as I would not like them. He knows what I like. Fortunately my wife did not like them anyway.

Total nonsense.

 

[amirm]

Adding on, the reason there are so many negative outcomes in reviews is because there has been little checks and balances in the industry. No one had seriously gone after objectively evaluating audio gear so any and all implementations has gotten out. Indeed, even manufacturers have stopped measuring in any serious way the products before releasing them. So any wonder that this is the outcome?

Fortunately not every manufacturer acts like that so we can still find plenty of products to buy. But we only get there by measuring. Not sticking fingers in the ear and relying on this and that dealer or whatever.

 

[CtheArgie]

The fundamental issue for me with the PS Audio FR30, heretically, is not the measurements. I think that bottom line, they do not think that measurements are the top priority. One only has to read the things that McG has said in writing about the speakers. First, he generated a specific type of bias by calling them "IRS killers". This is clear the expectation bias he wanted. Very few people had heard in person an IRS system but almost everyone with a cursory reading of "audio" knows them as "legendary", for many reasons. McG owns a pair and over time they were the best ever, then he changed the woofers, they became the best ever, he changed the crossover, they became the best ever, he used miniDSP with them, oops, that is digital issue so it escaped from him and quietly shut that conversation down. When he announces they will be IRS kilelrs, he sets up everyone that he knows and this they will be better. This is marketing.

He also introuduces them at $30k. If you again read what they say, including by Chris, they compare them to Wilsons and I think a Magico model that are slightly more expensive than the FR30. Again, he is positioning them, or creating an expectation, that they will be "better" than them (IRS killers at similar price). They never mention Kii or D&D or other speakers. Their target audience is those that buy Wilsons.

Their launch price is $30K. This anchors the line from PS. Newer models will be "expected" to be less pricy than $30k. People will see them against this anchored statement. How close in sound to IRS killers?

It is really "brilliant" marketing, and the is why I don't think that measurements are the top priority to them. They have to be perceived in the ballpark of those others and given the label, McG expects this to be a winning proposition.

This is why the squiggles in high frequency are relatively less important. Most people, especially those in the target audience, cannot hear above 12 kHz or about. Even people under the age of 40, have a hard time hearing frequencies above 12kHz, unless unmasked and at sufficient SPL. Very little music has that. Thereby, the very high peak is irrelevant. It will be the performance from the bass to around 8kHz that will matter. And as long as they can sound similar to Wilsons, PS thinks it is a winner.

Lastly, McG has fully committed to DSD. This means that it will be impossible for him to launch a set of speakers with DSP, digital input and amplified. He cannot say on one hand that DSD is the best and then have a AD-DA inside his speaker. Even he knows he cannot have that inconsistency. Also, his P&L probably shows him that over time he is likely to be making more money with electronics than with speakers. This is why he will "invest" in the studio, spend huge amounts of money there but NOT buy a Klippel NFS. The studio helps him say that DSD is better, he puts his money where his mouth is, and continues to sell his electronics.

Again, in the market of Wilsons, active or DSP and active speakers do not compete. He is choosing WHERE to compete.

It is all MBA style issues.

 

[FrantzM]

It’s possible. You just need to space to do it. My garage isn’t tall enough. Warkwyn may not have the space or may just not want to deal with such a heavy speaker.

But again, you can measure huge speakers with the NFS.

Look at this for proof:

Was about to post similar ... Thanks @hardisj ...

 

[DWI]

The ASR database, which I appreciate is out of date, has only 12 speakers at $2k or more each. Of those, 7 are Revel or JBL. The coverage of more expensive consumer speaker products is almost non-existent. I for one would be interested to see more.

If you look at https://www.red-dot.org, you will see JBL have a good track record in design recognition. The problem with WAF is that it generally adds quite a lot of cost, sometimes most of the cost, and the speaker you referred to is the most expensive one reviewed.

Indeed, even manufacturers have stopped measuring in any serious way the products before releasing them

If owning a Klippel system is an objective indication of a manufacturer's seriousness, here in the UK the consumer brands with Klippel are B&W, ATC, Monitor Audio, Celestion and PMC. The database contains only 4 products from these companies, average price $800, all rejected. I mentioned earlier that PMC, whose top consumer and studio products cost about $75,000 and $150,000 respectively, are developed with their own measuring technology that, unlike Klippel, is non-invasive and in several respects more accurate. They also use Klippel, have their own research facility and anechoic chamber, and use of several others.

There is 90 years of research and measurements available online from various sources and subscription channels. It has never stopped. The point I would agree with is that usually manufacturers choose not to publish their measurements. Hopefully PS Audio will publish their data for the FR-30.

 

[YSC]

The fundamental issue for me with the PS Audio FR30, heretically, is not the measurements. I think that bottom line, they do not think that measurements are the top priority. One only has to read the things that McG has said in writing about the speakers. First, he generated a specific type of bias by calling them "IRS killers". This is clear the expectation bias he wanted. Very few people had heard in person an IRS system but almost everyone with a cursory reading of "audio" knows them as "legendary", for many reasons. McG owns a pair and over time they were the best ever, then he changed the woofers, they became the best ever, he changed the crossover, they became the best ever, he used miniDSP with them, oops, that is digital issue so it escaped from him and quietly shut that conversation down. When he announces they will be IRS kilelrs, he sets up everyone that he knows and this they will be better. This is marketing.

He also introuduces them at $30k. If you again read what they say, including by Chris, they compare them to Wilsons and I think a Magico model that are slightly more expensive than the FR30. Again, he is positioning them, or creating an expectation, that they will be "better" than them (IRS killers at similar price). They never mention Kii or D&D or other speakers. Their target audience is those that buy Wilsons.

Their launch price is $30K. This anchors the line from PS. Newer models will be "expected" to be less pricy than $30k. People will see them against this anchored statement. How close in sound to IRS killers?

It is really "brilliant" marketing, and the is why I don't think that measurements are the top priority to them. They have to be perceived in the ballpark of those others and given the label, McG expects this to be a winning proposition.

This is why the squiggles in high frequency are relatively less important. Most people, especially those in the target audience, cannot hear above 12 kHz or about. Even people under the age of 40, have a hard time hearing frequencies above 12kHz, unless unmasked and at sufficient SPL. Very little music has that. Thereby, the very high peak is irrelevant. It will be the performance from the bass to around 8kHz that will matter. And as long as they can sound similar to Wilsons, PS thinks it is a winner.

Lastly, McG has fully committed to DSD. This means that it will be impossible for him to launch a set of speakers with DSP, digital input and amplified. He cannot say on one hand that DSD is the best and then have a AD-DA inside his speaker. Even he knows he cannot have that inconsistency. Also, his P&L probably shows him that over time he is likely to be making more money with electronics than with speakers. This is why he will "invest" in the studio, spend huge amounts of money there but NOT buy a Klippel NFS. The studio helps him say that DSD is better, he puts his money where his mouth is, and continues to sell his electronics.

Again, in the market of Wilsons, active or DSP and active speakers do not compete. He is choosing WHERE to compete.

It is all MBA style issues.

Actually at 37 I can hear the stupid mosquitoe repeller whine at some 17khz as hell…

 

[DWI]

There's probably a lot of truth in what you say, except Chris seems far too techie not to have constantly obsessed over the measurements.

I don't agree on the Wilson thing. I've never heard a Wilson speaker I didn't like, but I suspect PS Audio are not fussed who buys them, as long as they have $30k.

 

[CtheArgie]

@DWI , can you explain to me the term "non invasive" in this context and describe to me more accurate measurement technologies?

I actually was going to say that Chris is disposable to McG. McG just needs to him produce a set of speakers that compete in his target market. It its a cruel statement, but in corporate life it is very common. A gun for hire. You can get a great shot, like Chris, or you can get an amateur. He hired Chris to maximize the chance of getting a speaker that competes favorable.

This is more classic MBA stuff.

 

[MZKM]

are developed with their own measuring technology that, unlike Klippel, is non-invasive and in several respects more accurate.

I see no proof of this.

https://pmc-speakers.com/technology/research-and-development

They say they do anechoic measurements, and then for bass frequencies they do near-field measurements and then compute the resulting sound field.

Seeing how every PMC measured has a similar [poor] response, they do aim for a target curve, but it’s so wacky you wonder how they came up with it.

 

[HammerSandwich]

View attachment 206116

So, what you're saying is that hobbyists need a Calculator Science Review?

 

[amirm]

The ASR database, which I appreciate is out of date, has only 12 speakers at $2k or more each. Of those, 7 are Revel or JBL. The coverage of more expensive consumer speaker products is almost non-existent. I for one would be interested to see more.

You would? You just got done telling us even if you were next door to me, you would lend me one: "Even if I lived next door to Amir and was a happy owner of a Sonus Faber speaker, I don't think I'd lend it to him. "

 

[JRS]

I may agree that a typical audiuophile buys what he likes the sound of (and ignoring the input of the other senses) and what makes him (usually a 'him) feel good, but hasn't the research so many of us here rely on also stated that lay listeners usually prefer a more neutral and 'truthful' sounding speaker? Some older 'monitors' did tend to put (over)emphasised detail at the top of the requirements and twenty years ago, an accentuated upper midrange (the NS10 balance showing the best - and worst - of this balance when used in free space) seemed quite common. Domestic models of this era could suppress these frequencies a little and I believe still do at the crossover region BUT, today, modern testing and materials techniques do seem to be reducing these excesses on the whole I think.
My first sniffy view of these speakers is that even at $30k, they're 'only' passive models, so automatically second tier eye-fi regardless (my bad I'm sure, but whatever stuff I use currently, my heart belongs to decently optimised active techniques). I'm sure they'll find a ready market and give impetus for other models to join them

I agree--active all the way, too many tried and true engineering benefits to pass up. OTOH, in this world of theirs, finding that perfect marriage of amp and speaker is a big deal, however elusive or imaginary that may be. And of course if you have 30k for speakers, spending another 7500. for a DEQX or the like is no biggie, but this isn't for the faint of heart or technically challenged user. It would seem more idiot proof to have a custom UI with limited adjustability--this is where a dealer network would help.

Or and I forget the firm, but the DSP/correction filters are cloud based. You make the msmts using a well defined protocol, upload the data via wi-fi to their servers, and an hour later a set of filter coefficients is downloaded to your device and voila. Now that seems slick.

I didn't watch the review--I hope for crying out loud that the driver terminals for triamping (or at least bi) are available. I'd understand if Chris was in favor of keeping the tweeter/mid xo/network as a single drive unit. But doing DSP on the entire system defeats some of the advantages.

 

[amirm]

If owning a Klippel system is an objective indication of a manufacturer's seriousness, here in the UK the consumer brands with Klippel are B&W, ATC, Monitor Audio, Celestion and PMC. The database contains only 4 products from these companies, average price $800, all rejected.

The list of customers with Klippel NFS is confidential. They list customers here and there but that is likely usage of the base Klippel (non-NFS) system.

You are confused here anyway. There is no requirement to have Klippel NFS. You can rent time in anechoic chambers, or build your own (as Harman has). Or measure outdoor, or in very large indoor space.

My comment was about magazines not being equipped to make such measurements in the proper way (following research). So a lot passes through. But now we are around and putting wind behind the arrow of companies that produce such great products. This will change the industry.

We already see the effect. Post my review of Ascend speaker, they purchased a Klippel NFS. If that one-man company can do it, then larger companies like PS audio should as well. Klippel NFS sharply increases productivity and reduces design time for a speaker. It will pay for itself very quickly if you consider your R&D costs to build a speaker like FR30.

 

[CtheArgie]

@amirm , it depends on how long is someone in the speaker design business. If they think that they will only be designing for three years, then it’s a financial calculation.

again, I’m becoming more convinced that PS made a decision of designing for the short term.

 

[amirm]

@amirm , it depends on how long is someone in the speaker design business. If they think that they will only be designing for three years, then it’s a financial calculation.

If this speaker indeed took four years to design, I am assuming its R&D cost is easily over $1M. If so, $100K would have been a very small hit to the overall budget.

When I had my hardware design group at Sony back in 1990s, I did not think twice about spending $30K in CAD tools for each engineer to speed up development. Compared to their salary, it was a small cost.

 

[Everett T]

I agree--active all the way, too many tried and true engineering benefits to pass up. OTOH, in this world of theirs, finding that perfect marriage of amp and speaker is a big deal, however elusive or imaginary that may be. And of course if you have 30k for speakers, spending another 7500. for a DEQX or the like is no biggie, but this isn't for the faint of heart or technically challenged user. It would seem more idiot proof to have a custom UI with limited adjustability--this is where a dealer network would help.

Or and I forget the firm, but the DSP/correction filters are cloud based. You make the msmts using a well defined protocol, upload the data via wi-fi to their servers, and an hour later a set of filter coefficients is downloaded to your device and voila. Now that seems slick.

I didn't watch the review--I hope for crying out loud that the driver terminals for triamping (or at least bi) are available. I'd understand if Chris was in favor of keeping the tweeter/mid xo/network as a single drive unit. But doing DSP on the entire system defeats some of the advantages.

There's a reason that the ridiculously priced audiophile speakers (50k and up) are almost always passive, they need to leave room for amps to be shown off (purchased). Tri or quad biwiring with $20k amps is a boutique's bread and butter, after the $100k in cables and power products.

 

[CtheArgie]

@amirm . I totally agree. I find their decision difficult to understand.

 

[Sal1950]

ASR has tested a lot of speakers, but hardly any current consumer models and virtually none with any WAF.

What does WAF have to do in the big picture of this?
How many serious audiophiles at the income level that lets them afford $10-50k+ speakers don't have a dedicated room in their home where WAF is still an issue? Much of the photos I see on the net from these folks have beautiful listening rooms with handsome but not too WAF room treatments and such, man caves in street language filled to the brim with gear. Why would anyone put this kind of investment into HiFi and then have it turn out sounding like crap because of a lousy sounding room?
WAF may be a huge factor at the mid-fi level of income/expenditure but when you step into the very top levels of the hobby, WAF is a non-issue.

 

[MaxBuck]

What does WAF have to do in the big picture

... when you step into the very top levels of the hobby, WAF is a non-issue.

I can only assume that you are single.