PS Audio FR20 speakers - First impressions

[GXAlan]

Best example was adding a tube preamp. Please explain how you measure an increase in sound quality and sound stage by adding a preamp? Seems counterintuitive. Maybe you cannot measure it?

You can measure it.

It will be in the non linear harmonic distortion which generates some liveliness to the sound. Both I and someone I sold my 300B tubes to have paired tube preamps with active studio monitors.

 

[ahofer]

Maybe you cannot measure it?

If you can hear it (reliably, unsighted), you can measure it.

 

[CleanSound]

HifiNews is tricky.

Look at their JBL 4349 measurements

JBL 4349 Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report Where you sit may prove vital in getting the very best from JBL's 4349. Avoid the temptation to 'look' directly into the throat of the horn for there's a substantial –14dB notch at the ~1.4kHz crossover [dashed trace, Graph 1].

www.hifinews.com

Vs @amirm ‘s proven Klippel NFS measurements

JBL 4349 Review (Studio Monitor Speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the JBL 4349 2-way Studio Monitor (passive). All of you were too cheap to buy one so I had to do it myself. Out of my own money no less! Luckily I got a discount from the retail cost of US $7,500 for a pair. Note: our company, Madrona Digital...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I don't believe HiFi news does anechoic measurements, I don't see anywhere where they stat d their measurements are CEA 2034 or did I missed it?

 

[CleanSound]

The most surprising thing to me was that with the preamp's volume control turned off, I still heard hiss coming out of the speakers- not very loud, but still there.

Low SINAD?

 

[CleanSound]

I wouldn't say that we're making changes after selling. Inevitably, things pop up in QC and you just need to monitor and tweak your assembly processes on drivers and things.

I am a development engineer and not a researcher but I do have a personal interesting in ongoing R&D with transducers (some of which I've shared here).

I can't complain much because I see that Andrew Jones has made a serious of extremely well received products with an even more modest setup, just a small portion of a warehouse with a piece of truss as a stand for polar measurements (and great intuition and understanding of the core physics and measurements involved).

Anyway, as the product designer, thanks for the feedback and your impressions and taking the chance to try the aspen FR20's.

@Chris Brunhaver, you definitely have earned my respect and many others by coming here and interacting with the members of this forum (whom are known to be critical of PS Audio and it's very controversial CEO when it comes to science, engineering and salesmanship).

There are hints dropped here and there that when Andrew Jones left Elac and went to Mofi, Mofi didn't invest much in R&D but Andrew Jones make do and was still successful in designing his new speakers.

As a business, R&D investment on a new business segment is a very tricky thing and a hard decision to make. A NFC costs $100k or more plus import duty and I am not sure if the software is a perpetual license or requires a subscription and I believe that doesn't even include the mic (a proper anechoic chamber costs even more!) It's indeed very hard to justify, when that new business segment hasn't even made a penny yet.

I owned a pair of Perlisten S7t, from what I interpreted in between the lines when I spoke with Erik (Perlisten CTO), it didn't sounded like they had a NFS when they started Perlisten neither as Erik mentioned that they were doing gated measurements, I'm sure they had to use an external service to do NFS or anechoic measurements if they needed it during the R&D process just like you did during the FR development. I am fairly sure that Perlisten finally have a NFS after some initial sales and revenue.

I really do hope that Paul will invest more into speaker R&D after some FR sales, particular if he is serious about the speaker business.

Now, I have an idea, maybe I should finance a NFS and and sell measuring services, instead for $2,500, I will do it for $2k. It would only take me 60 measurements to make my money back and then I can have a NFS as a personal toy!

 

[ahofer]

@Chris Brunhaver, you definitely have earned my respect and many others by coming here and interacting with the members of this forum (whom are known to be critical of PS Audio and it's very controversial CEO when it comes to science, engineering and salesmanship).

There are hints dropped here and there that when Andrew Jones left Elac and went to Mofi, Mofi didn't invest much in R&D but Andrew Jones make do and was still successful in designing his new speakers.

As a business, R&D investment on a new business segment is a very tricky thing and a hard decision to make. A NFC costs $100k or more plus import duty and I am not sure if the software is a perpetual license or requires a subscription and I believe that doesn't even include the mic (a proper anechoic chamber costs even more!) It's indeed very hard to justify, when that new business segment hasn't even made a penny yet.

I owned a pair of Perlisten S7t, from what I interpreted in between the lines when I spoke with Erik (Perlisten CTO), it didn't sounded like they had a NFS when they started Perlisten neither as Erik mentioned that they were doing gated measurements, I'm sure they had to use an external service to do NFS or anechoic measurements if they needed it during the R&D process just like you did during the FR development. I am fairly sure that Perlisten finally have a NFS after some initial sales and revenue.

I really do hope that Paul will invest more into speaker R&D after some FR sales, particular if he is serious about the speaker business.

Now, I have an idea, maybe I should finance a NFS and and sell measuring services, instead for $2,500, I will do it for $2k. It would only take me 60 measurements to make my money back and then I can have a NFS as a personal toy!

And yet, @amirm and Erin have them and just do reviews.

 

[CleanSound]

And yet, @amirm and Erin have them and just do reviews.

I think that logic is very short sighted in my humbled opinion.

I can only speculate on Amir's personal financial standing based on the public knowledge that he was a successful tech executive and a business owner of a what appears to be a very successful business (Not trying to put Amir on the spot, but this is public knowledge).

Erin's entire "business" is objective speaker review, how would he do it without a NFS? Sure he was doing outdoor quasi anechoic measurements, but as Erin stated before, sometime, it would take him an entire weekend to measure a speaker without a NFS. More importantly these are personal hobbies and passion for both Amir and Erin, personal hobbies and passion don't always follow good financial practices.

If I can be honest, I am not a fan of PS Audio products, although I can be swayed if their speakers measures well under under CEA 2034 along with a positive audition experience. But I definitely wouldn't be buying any PS Audio electronics for obvious and non obvious reasons, anyway I digress. However, know that PS Audio is a business despite it is a business born from a passion; and a business exists to make profit. . .full stop. Any deviation of the goal of making a profit, then PS Audio would have been called a non-for-profit, like ASR is.

Whether you like Paul or not, the fact remains that he has a responsibility to the company's bottom line. . .and such bottom line affects the stability of his employee's future employment at PS Audio. It would be too risky to make this kind of investment in a new and unproven business segment.

However, from what I am observing, it appears that these speakers are doing very well, as such it is generating revenue; so at this point if Paul doesn't invest into R&D, then it's easier for us to be critics. I sincerely hope that Paul takes that initial revenue from the speaker sales and put it all back into R&D, not just for Chris's or PS Audio's sake but to help the speaker industry continue move forward.

 

[ahofer]

I think that logic is very short sighted in my humbled opinion.

I can only speculate on Amir's personal financial standing based on the public knowledge that he was a successful tech executive and a business owner of a what appears to be a very successful business (Not trying to put Amir on the spot, but this is public knowledge).

Erin's entire "business" is objective speaker review, how would he do it without a NFS? Sure he was doing outdoor quasi anechoic measurements, but as Erin stated before, sometime, it would take him an entire weekend to measure a speaker without a NFS. More importantly these are personal hobbies and passion for both Amir and Erin, personal hobbies and passion don't always follow good financial practices.

If I can be honest, I am not a fan of PS Audio products, although I can be swayed if their speakers measures well under under CEA 2034 along with a positive audition experience. But I definitely wouldn't be buying any PS Audio electronics for obvious and non obvious reasons, anyway I digress. However, know that PS Audio is a business despite it is a business born from a passion; and a business exists to make profit. . .full stop. Any deviation of the goal of making a profit, then PS Audio would have been called a non-for-profit, like ASR is.

Whether you like Paul or not, the fact remains that he has a responsibility to the company's bottom line. . .and such bottom line affects the stability of his employee's future employment at PS Audio. It would be too risky to make this kind of investment in a new and unproven business segment.

However, from what I am observing, it appears that these speakers are doing very well, as such it is generating revenue; so at this point if Paul doesn't invest into R&D, then it's easier for us to be critics. I sincerely hope that Paul takes that initial revenue from the speaker sales and put it all back into R&D, not just for Dave's or PS Audio's sake but to help the speaker industry continue move forward.

I don’t understand your criticism. I’m just pointing out that a Klippel is not such a huge R&D investment. I’m not sure it supports a reviewing business model, though.

 

[CleanSound]

I don’t understand your criticism. I’m just pointing out that a Klippel is not such a huge R&D investment. I’m not sure it supports a reviewing business model, though.

I'm not sure how you read my comment as criticism? I am commenting why it's understandable businesses are hesitant to spend $100k+ on a NFS or other R&D tools and that $100k IS a huge investment.

In fact, my understanding is that even Ascend Acoustic only procured a NFS in recent times, and Magico (the company that sells $750k speakers). And I'm not sure id Philharmonics even have a NFS yet?

 

[ahofer]

I'm not sure how you read my comment as criticism? I am commenting why it's understandable businesses are hesitant to spend $100k+ on a NFS or other R&D tools and that $100k IS a huge investment.

In fact, my understanding is that even Ascend Acoustic only procured a NFS in recent times, and Magico (the company that sells $750k speakers). And I'm not sure id Philharmonics even have a NFS yet?

Maybe I misunderstood - did you say my thinking was short term?

I don’t think $100k is a big deal in PS Audio’s world, and certainly shouldn’t be for those companies. The manufacturing setup is gonna be more than that, and it is THE modern way to assure the quality of your product. Lots of people get loans and buy CNC machines to get started.

 

[CleanSound]

Maybe I misunderstood - did you say my thinking was short term?

I don’t think $100k is a big deal in PS Audio’s world, and certainly shouldn’t be for those companies. The manufacturing setup is gonna be more than that, and it is THE modern way to assure the quality of your product. Lots of people get loans and buy CNC machines to get started.

You commented that Amir and Erin has a NFS, implying that an NFS is not a big deal nor a big investment and there is no good reason why PS Audio doesn't have one.

I replied that that logic is short sighted not as a criticism but as a matter of opinion.

You are saying that $100k is not a big investment for "for those companies." I am saying it is. And that is where we disagree on.

PS Audio is a small company and $100k for a new and unknown business segment is not a decision to be taken lightly.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

I don't believe HiFi news does anechoic measurements, I don't see anywhere where they stat d their measurements are CEA 2034 or did I missed it?

Hifi news does quasi anechoic measurements and then close mics things in the bass (ala Keele's method from his 1974 paper) and then does diffraction corrections to that to adjust for the baffle step.

Paul Miller (who owns HFN and does the technical measurements, among other things), also owns Stereophile but still has John Atkinson do his measurements and interpretation for that magazine.

 

[ahofer]

You are saying that $100k is not a big investment for "for those companies." I am saying it is. And that is where we disagree on.

PS Audio is a small company and $100k for a new and unknown business segment is not a decision to be taken lightly.

Oh, yeah, we definitely disagree - depending on which site you look at on the internet, PS Audio’s sales are 9.3mm or $35mm. And to NOT buy a Klippel when selling a seriously expensive loudspeaker is negligence, in my opinion.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

@Chris Brunhaver, you definitely have earned my respect and many others by coming here and interacting with the members of this forum (whom are known to be critical of PS Audio and it's very controversial CEO when it comes to science, engineering and salesmanship).

There are hints dropped here and there that when Andrew Jones left Elac and went to Mofi, Mofi didn't invest much in R&D but Andrew Jones make do and was still successful in designing his new speakers.

As a business, R&D investment on a new business segment is a very tricky thing and a hard decision to make. A NFC costs $100k or more plus import duty and I am not sure if the software is a perpetual license or requires a subscription and I believe that doesn't even include the mic (a proper anechoic chamber costs even more!) It's indeed very hard to justify, when that new business segment hasn't even made a penny yet.

I owned a pair of Perlisten S7t, from what I interpreted in between the lines when I spoke with Erik (Perlisten CTO), it didn't sounded like they had a NFS when they started Perlisten neither as Erik mentioned that they were doing gated measurements, I'm sure they had to use an external service to do NFS or anechoic measurements if they needed it during the R&D process just like you did during the FR development. I am fairly sure that Perlisten finally have a NFS after some initial sales and revenue.

I really do hope that Paul will invest more into speaker R&D after some FR sales, particular if he is serious about the speaker business.

Now, I have an idea, maybe I should finance a NFS and and sell measuring services, instead for $2,500, I will do it for $2k. It would only take me 60 measurements to make my money back and then I can have a NFS as a personal toy!

I've only ever chatted with Andrew a couple of times. I was on a loudspeaker design panel discussion with him, Richard Vandersteen, John Devore and Steven Norber at AXPONA last year. He also comments in a number of online forums with some of the most insightful ones being on a facebook group "DIY Loudspeaker Project Pad" that's run by a guy named Javad Shadzi. I also met Javad at AXPONA and found out that he has become friends with Andrew and visited his current "lab" in California a couple of times (pictured below).

What I gleaned from that conversation is that Andrew has a surprisingly modest measurement setup but also an incredibly sound understanding of the underlying physics and I think his excellent designs generally speak for themselves. He has had a few missteps with things like the Adante product but that have been as much a marketing issue (larger, somewhat expensive model made in China from a company that traditionally made that level of product in Germany) as a technical one.

While I would like to get an NFS, they are not ground truth and can have some inaccuracies in the low frequencies in larger, multiway speakers and potentially some issue with how port output/resonances are emphasized or displayed (due to the nearfield nature of the measurement. It seems like doing a ground plane measurements and certain sanity checks are still a very good idea.

 

[CleanSound]

Oh, yeah, we definitely disagree - depending on which site you look at on the internet, PS Audio’s sales are 9.3mm or $35mm. And to NOT buy a Klippel when selling a seriously expensive loudspeaker is negligence, in my opinion.

I don't know if and what experience you have as a business owner, I was a minority owner of a small business and I can tell you that a lot of people over estimates (many times grossly over estimate) how much businesses makes, despite sales and revenue. A quick search shows that PS Audio is listed with 57 employees, say an average of $80k/year salary, that's $4.5m for salaries alone, not including benefits. . .add in rent/utilities, materials, vendors and existing R&D cost.

I sold my minority stake in that small business, while it was profitable, it just wasn't worth my time nor effort and it wasn't a business of passion.

Anyway, we digress greatly.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

I'm not sure how you read my comment as criticism? I am commenting why it's understandable businesses are hesitant to spend $100k+ on a NFS or other R&D tools and that $100k IS a huge investment.

In fact, my understanding is that even Ascend Acoustic only procured a NFS in recent times, and Magico (the company that sells $750k speakers). And I'm not sure id Philharmonics even have a NFS yet?

I don't know if and what experience you have as a business owner, I was a minority owner of a small business and I can tell you that a lot of people over estimates (many times grossly over estimate) how much businesses makes, despite sales and revenue. A quick search shows that PS Audio is listed with 57 employees, say an average of $80k/year salary, that's $4.5m for salaries alone, not including benefits. . .add in rent/utilities, materials, vendors and existing R&S cost.

I sold my minority stake in that small business, while it was profitable, it just wasn't worth my time nor effort and it wasn't a business of passion.

Anyway, we digress greatly.

I try to keep my comments about speaker design and the hobby but I will say that your comments represent the business realities more so than any others I've seen here.

 

[CleanSound]

I've only ever chatted with Andrew a couple of times. I was on a loudspeaker design panel discussion with him, Richard Vandersteen, John Devore and Steven Norber at AXPONA last year. He also comments in a number of online forums with some of the most insightful ones being on a facebook group "DIY Loudspeaker Project Pad" that's run by a guy named Javad Shadzi. I also met Javad at AXPONA and found out that he has become friends with Andrew and visited his current "lab" in California a couple of times (pictured below).

What I gleaned from that conversation is that Andrew has a surprisingly modest measurement setup but also an incredibly sound understanding of the underlying physics and I think his excellent designs generally speak for themselves. He has had a few missteps with things like the Adante product but that have been as much a marketing issue (larger, somewhat expensive model made in China from a company that traditionally made that level of product in Germany) as a technical one.

I'm a nobody, but I did interacted with Andrew online, great guy. Sometimes he would post pictures online of him measuring speakers on the roof of his home!

While I would like to get an NFS, they are not ground truth and can have some inaccuracies in the low frequencies in larger, multiway speakers and potentially some issue with how port output/resonances are emphasized or displayed (due to the nearfield nature of the measurement. It seems like doing a ground plane measurements and certain sanity checks are still a very good idea.

I'm far from even being remotely competent in speaker design and engineering, my very limited understanding is that the wavelengths of bass is much longer and so anechoic measurements in a confined space is not accurate. I believe many people would measure them outdoors in a quasi anechoic environment, even if they have fancy tools and facilities. Axiom audio has an outdoor tower where they would do outdoor quasi anechoic measurements, despite that they have an anechoic chamber onsite.

Thanks @Chris Brunhaver for interacting with the community. Happy holidays!

 

[ahofer]

I try to keep my comments about speaker design and the hobby but I will say that your comments represent the business realities more so than any others I've seen here.

I’m an owner/manager of a much larger business and investor in dozens of small ones. I spent the first 15 years of my career lending to and advising small businesses and sit on several corporate and not-for-profit boards.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

I’m an owner/manager of a much larger business and investor in dozens of small ones. I spent the first 15 years of my career lending to and advising small businesses and sit on several corporate and not-for-profit boards.

I'm not trying to discount your input at all. Maybe I should have said "the current business realities at PS".

I

 

[CleanSound]

I spent 15 years as an adult film actor before I switched over to adult film directing, that's when I took Ron Jeremy under my wing as a protégé. Till this day, all of the female costars I worked with walks with a limp. . . .then I realized that this is the internet and I can be whoever I want!