Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[Blumlein 88]

Interesting. Assuming gasoline refinery efficiency of about 87%, and I'm not sure how to estimate the energy efficiency of storage, pipelines, and trucking distribution (but let's assume 90% just to throw a number out there, because the volumes of gasoline are so high), then 30% (ICE motor efficiency) - 13% (refinery losses) - 10% (distribution loss estimate), just to make the calculation similar for ICE vehicles, and you're at 7% energy efficiency for combustion engines. Which means that by this kind of shamefully sketchy math, EV are four times more energy efficient than ICE vehicles.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/es501035a

Don't think you would subtract those efficiency numbers. You'd multiply them.

.30x.87x.9=.2349 or 23.49% for ICE. Still less than EVs.

 

[blueone]

Don't think you would subtract those efficiency numbers. You'd multiply them.

.30x.87x.9=.2349 or 23.49% for ICE. Still less than EVs.

I thought about that. The efficiencies are independent factors. If you multiply them it doesn’t seem correct.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I thought about that. The efficiencies are independent factors. If you multiply them it doesn’t seem correct.

Pretty certain it is correct. If you had more steps and did subtraction you could end up with negative numbers and obviously even very inefficient devices don't get energy input and soak up excess energy from the aether.

 

[blueone]

Pretty certain it is correct. If you had more steps and did subtraction you could end up with negative numbers and obviously even very inefficient devices don't get energy input and soak up excess energy from the aether.

I'm not so certain. For example, look at the asinine figure of merit the US government came up with:

Text Version of the Electric Vehicle Label | US EPA

Text version of electric vehicle fuel economy label displays and details.

www.epa.gov

They're using energy equivalents because they want an MPG-like number. I can't get my head around that.

I was also bothered by the fact that I chose to compare fossil fuel generation and not nuclear, hydro, wind, or solar, mainly because they would have made the problem more difficult. At least gas turbines have an efficiency factor. These other sources only have $/MWH metrics. I think I need to discuss my concerns with one of my math genius friends. They're not pleasant mentors, but I usually learn something cool when they're done telling me how dumb I am.

 

[thewas]

Pretty certain it is correct. If you had more steps and did subtraction you could end up with negative numbers and obviously even very inefficient devices don't get energy input and soak up excess energy from the aether.

Not only pretty certain but absolutely, energy efficiencies are the fraction of the energy output divided by the energy input n=Eoutput/Einput so with for example 3 stages the total efficiency

n=Efinaloutput/Einitialinput=E3output/E1input=(E3output/E3input)*(E2output/E2input)*(E1output/E1input)=n3*n2*n1
as E1output=E2input and E2output=E3input

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'm not so certain. For example, look at the asinine figure of merit the US government came up with:

Text Version of the Electric Vehicle Label | US EPA

Text version of electric vehicle fuel economy label displays and details.

www.epa.gov

They're using energy equivalents because they want an MPG-like number. I can't get my head around that.

I was also bothered by the fact that I chose to compare fossil fuel generation and not nuclear, hydro, wind, or solar, mainly because they would have made the problem more difficult. At least gas turbines have an efficiency factor. These other sources only have $/MWH metrics. I think I need to discuss my concerns with one of my math genius friends. They're not pleasant mentors, but I usually learn something cool when they're done telling me how dumb I am.

The EPA MPGe is pretty simple. They use 33.7 kw/h as an energy equivalent to 1 gallon of gasoline. Take the watts per mile energy use and divide that into 33,700 watts and you have your MPGe. There are some issues with that being equivalent to gasoline MPG, but that is their attempt at it. A more reasonable number with all efficiencies involved would equate 12 kw/h with 1 gallon of gasoline equivalent. If you make that adjustment you'll find the MPG of similar sized cars to be similar.

That doesn't really get to the answer about over all thermodynamic efficiency. A better way for that would be brake specific fuel consumption as a value in grams/watt or joules related to how many miles you cover vs watts/mile in an electric. Taking into account the upstream efficiencies you have already look into.

Really no need to take into account refinery efficiencies as they are so similar for gasoline and obtaining natural gas. Transportation of gasoline to the local pump should be considered. The number will be lower for natural gas sent to electrical power plants.

So basically 90% for transporting liquid fuel, 30% for engines (maybe a bit less, but VVT engines are pretty good over fairly wide ranges). 85% for charging batteries and getting it back, 90% for the electric motor, and about 40% for generating and moving the electricity. You end up maybe 4% or so better with EVs. Even that is conditional. Driving around town EVs are much better than ICE, and driving on trips at 80 mph ICE might be as good as EVs. Modern engines can be 36% at higher loads and things that are hybrids using Atkinson cycle engines can be 40%.

The big pay off with EVs is environmental. Natural gas is about half the C02 emissions vs gasoline and even better vs diesel. EVs can be solar powered, hydroelectric powered and nuclear powered in some measure depending upon where you live.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Not only pretty certain but absolutely, energy efficiencies are the fraction of the energy output divided by the energy input n=Eoutput/Einput so with for example 3 stages the total efficiency

n=Efinaloutput/Einitialinput=E3output/E1input=(E3output/E3input)*(E2output/E2input)*(E1output/E1input)=n3*n2*n1
as E1output=E2input and E2output=E3input

Well I was trying to be nice.

 

[jbattman1016]

Its all about combustion and CO2 that's it. No politics here. If you don't see climate change as call to dump fossil fuel and go to renewable energy so be it. Call it politics if you want. It becomes political if anyone wants to create a sense of urgency or sees the benefits on the slide in cartoon? Small steps are steps. Waiting for end all and be all answer is not going to help. It used to be called energy independence back when dealt with OPEC. That wake up call didn't work. Getting people to change or at least think about the amount and what energy they consume and its harm or help is a good first step. I think that momentum is going in the right direction. To me politics is saying we won't buy Chinese goods if they continue to build coal plants and I'm not advocating that.

Sorry if the cartoon was too much for anybody.

This really. Doing everything possible to reduce my CO2 when upgrading my home is key. Once those new 120v heat pump water heaters come down in cost that'll be the next thing to be replaced.

 

[Spocko]

These bottlenecks are ironically, a good thing for under developed infrastructure in states like California. Already many are calling for a shift in EV charging periods from the classic night time recommendation to daylight/afternoon when the sun is at full power because of all the residential solar installations - apparently all that excess power going to waste unless more EVs are plugged-in between 12pm and 4pm.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

These bottlenecks are ironically, a good thing for under developed infrastructure in states like California. Already many are calling for a shift in EV charging periods from the classic night time recommendation to daylight/afternoon when the sun is at full power because of all the residential solar installations - apparently all that excess power going to waste unless more EVs are plugged-in between 12pm and 4pm.

Your comment on when solar panel output is at a maximum encapsulates why renewables are of limited use. When maximum demand is put onto the electrical supplies system it rarely coincides with renewables maximum output.

 

[Timcognito]

Your comment on when solar panel output is at a maximum encapsulates why renewables are of limited use. When maximum demand is put onto the electrical supplies system it rarely coincides with renewables maximum output.

Yes but the excess electricity can be used to generate hydrogen a clean burning fuel. The technology is in it's early stages but would go hand and hand with night and cloudy day power plant operation.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Yes but the excess electricity can be used to generate hydrogen a clean burning fuel. The technology is in it's early stages but would go hand and hand with night and cloudy day power plant operation.

The only flaw in it is what happens if the hydrogen plant needs to operate for more than a few hours in the afternoon. Would production need to cease in the morning and in the early evening when demand is at maximum?

 

[Spocko]

The only flaw in it is what happens if the hydrogen plant needs to operate for more than a few hours in the afternoon. Would production need to cease in the morning and in the early evening when demand is at maximum?

Or shift short term storage to individual residential solutions that doesn't use the raw materials in short supply - shift tax credits and incentives to specific storage solutions at the individual or local level (technologies that do not exacerbate the problem!).

 

[Timcognito]

The only flaw in it is what happens if the hydrogen plant needs to operate for more than a few hours in the afternoon. Would production need to cease in the morning and in the early evening when demand is at maximum?

Hydrogen can compressed and stored for use at any point just like natural gas. Not sure if efficiencies are maximized yet to make this option for large scale operation.

Again my whole house battery gets my house easily through the night, the only compromise is limited electric clothes drying on lower charge days or pay. All lights, kitchen and electronic/entertainment needs are met on battery. I do live in mild coastal climate so I'm lucky there and have a gas furnace, otherwise I'm a net electric provider.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Hydrogen can compressed and stored for use at any point just like natural gas. Not sure if efficiencies are maximized yet to make this option for large scale operation.

Again my whole house battery gets my house easily through the night, the only compromise is limited electric clothes drying on lower charge days or pay. All lights, kitchen and electronic/entertainment needs are met on battery. I do live in mild coastal climate so I'm lucky there and have a gas furnace, otherwise I'm a net electric provider.

Gong down a different route. Bought a Bioethanol heater for backup in case of power cuts. Lighting backup is provided using chargeable LED light bulbs, they give over two hours on full brilliance and taper off for a further 1 hour +. We don’t have a gas supply to our home, all electric so power cuts would have been a real problem. At the moment looking for a suitable UPS to keep the TV / HiFi going for a couple of hours. No intention of buying a diesel generator it would be a practical solution, spent some time working with Cat diesel generators. Don’t want the stink or the affect on the environment.

 

[Timcognito]

Gong down a different route. Bought a Bioethanol heater for backup in case of power cuts. Lighting backup is provided using chargeable LED light bulbs, they give over two hours on full brilliance and taper off for a further 1 hour +. We don’t have a gas supply to our home, all electric so power cuts would have been a real problem. At the moment looking for a suitable UPS to keep the TV / HiFi going for a couple of hours. No intention of buying a diesel generator it would be a practical solution, spent some time working with Cat diesel generators. Don’t want the stink or the affect on the environment.

I used a broker service like this in the US called Energy Sage and got many quotes without a single phone call from an installer. Learned a lot from them and their website. Like you I was initially interested in backup only. Searched and found these guys in the UK (seems similar) and links to energy sage for background info on tech and requirements.

I like that the system will pay for itself as well as meeting my devotion to environmental causes. I have the same feeling about generators after doing research.

Solar Battery Prices in the UK: Costs and Savings in 2024

Solar battery prices range from £2,500 and £10,000. Find out which factors influence solar battery storage costs in this guide.

www.greenmatch.co.uk

Compare and save on clean home energy solutions | EnergySage

EnergySage is the most trusted, transparent name in solar. Shop confidently and save thousands by comparing free, custom quotes online from local contractors.

www.energysage.com

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

I used a broker service like this in the US called Energy Sage and got many quotes without a single phone call from an installer. Learned a lot from them and their website. Like you I was initially interested in backup only. Searched and found these guys in the UK (seems similar) and links to energy sage for background info on tech and requirements.

I like that the system will pay for itself as well as meeting my devotion to environmental causes. I have the same feeling about generators after doing research.

Solar Battery Prices in the UK: Costs and Savings in 2024

Solar battery prices range from £2,500 and £10,000. Find out which factors influence solar battery storage costs in this guide.

www.greenmatch.co.uk

Compare and save on clean home energy solutions | EnergySage

EnergySage is the most trusted, transparent name in solar. Shop confidently and save thousands by comparing free, custom quotes online from local contractors.

www.energysage.com

If you’ve found any information on a UPS to run my TV and HiFi for a couple of hours?
Would be grateful!
When we first came here 28 years ago power cuts in winter happened several times a year. Kept the butane gas hob got several refills so cooking shouldn’t be a problem. Lived in Africa for nearly 30 years, shortages and power outages were a fact of life.

 

[ctrl]

Your comment on when solar panel output is at a maximum encapsulates why renewables are of limited use. When maximum demand is put onto the electrical supplies system it rarely coincides with renewables maximum output.

So much doom and gloom, one might think that many are hoping that the transition to CO2 neutral energy production will not succeed
It is clear that without the expansion of short- and long-term energy storage, there will be problems.

Despite all the existing problems, the reality looks quite good for countries with a high share of renewable energy. Power grid stability is increasing with the expansion of renewables.
Taking Germany as an example (where I know the details best), here is the share of renewable energy in electricity production:

Source: energy-charts.info

The share of renewable energy in electricity production is currently around 50%. The stability of the German power grid has tended to increase with the expansion of renewable energy generation.
In the graph below you can see that for the year 2020 the average power interruption duration per customer was 12.5 minutes - 10.2 minutes causes without force majeure (in blue) and 2.3 minutes caused by force majeure like hurricanes and floods... (in grey) per customer in the year 2020. The trend of the last 14 years indicates an increase in power grid stability with the growth of renewable energy.

Source: https://www.vde.com/de/fnn/aktuelles/00-2021-09-01-stoerungsstatistik

As a result of the increasing "remunicipalization" of electricity grids (electricity grids privatized by municipalities in the 1980s are increasingly being operated by the municipalities themselves again) and local electricity production, grid stability is likely to increase further.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

So much doom and gloom, one might think that many are hoping that the transition to CO2 neutral energy production will not succeed
It is clear that without the expansion of short- and long-term energy storage, there will be problems.

Despite all the existing problems, the reality looks quite good for countries with a high share of renewable energy. Power grid stability is increasing with the expansion of renewables.
Taking Germany as an example (where I know the details best), here is the share of renewable energy in electricity production:
View attachment 241106
Source: energy-charts.info

The share of renewable energy in electricity production is currently around 50%. The stability of the German power grid has tended to increase with the expansion of renewable energy generation.
In the graph below you can see that for the year 2020 the average power interruption duration per customer was 12.5 minutes - 10.2 minutes causes without force majeure (in blue) and 2.3 minutes caused by force majeure like hurricanes and floods... (in grey) per customer in the year 2020. The trend of the last 14 years indicates an increase in power grid stability with the growth of renewable energy.
View attachment 241107
Source: https://www.vde.com/de/fnn/aktuelles/00-2021-09-01-stoerungsstatistik

As a result of the increasing "remunicipalization" of electricity grids (electricity grids privatized by municipalities in the 1980s are increasingly being operated by the municipalities themselves again) and local electricity production, grid stability is likely to increase further.

Interesting! We all would like to see a rapid transition to environmentally friendly electrical generation, but we must be realistic about it. Firstly the energy supply must be reliable and affordable to everyone, if not it will lead to civil unrest and all the advances we have made won’t mean anything. The generation source has nothing to do with electrical grid stability. Seems like a step backwards when you write about the grid system being subject to municipal control. It will turn out to be ‘Every man for himself.’ Wealth in the UK isn‘t spread evenly across the country and if the wealthier parts developed a better electrical supply system it wouldn’t sit too well with me and many others.

 

[levimax]

This is from a WSJ article comment but it explains the problems the world is currently having with the transition to not carbon energy:

The thing that everyone forgets to factor in, with solar/wind, you can't offline anything. If you need 1GW to power your state, put in 1GW of solar/wind, you still need 1GW of gas/coal/nuke. State grows, you put in another GW of solar, build another GW of standby capacity for the times the wind/sun isn't producing.

This is always left out of both the carbon footprint calculations as well as the cost per KW when people discuss solar/wind. Yes, they make a cheap KW, if you can take that KW when they are producing. If you'd like the power to be on 24X7, you cannot rely on only wind/solar, you need duplicative capacity in some other reliable source of energy.

There are only 2 carbon free technologies that don't have this problem, hydro and nuclear. Comparing the cost of a KW produced by solar to a KW produced by nuclear without factoring in backup capacity and/or batteries is simply twisting the numbers.