Interesting review. Thanks for sharing it.
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Yamaha RX-A3080 Review (AVR)
- Thread starter amirm
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I don't understand what this means.
I suppose you're saying that the AVR will adjust the level of the signal from the preamp to the external amplifier (based on the YPAO measurements), so that the output can reach the intended 0dB. Hence, the external amp will not perform at its maximum power.
In case you're saying something different, can you please explain it for a non-expert?
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Amir was trying to measure the preamp output at
The preamp outputs are typically used for driving external power amps. You cannot "shut them off" as such but with the 3080 you can apparently disconnect the internal front left and front right channel power amps from the corresponding preamp outputs using certain amp assign settings. With the internal amps disconnected from their corresponding preamp outputs, those internal power amps will still be "powered", but since they no longer get a signal from the preamp, they will have nothing to amplify and will therefore be just idling, using very little power.
If you want to disconnect all of the internal power amp channels then you will have to go with AVRs that have the "preamp mode" feature such as Denon and Marantz's. When in preamp mode, those AVRs will effectively be used as a preamp/processor as all of the preamp channel outputs will be disconnected from the internal power amp inputs.
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Gary7
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@peng- this confirms the information that I was given by Yamaha Support regarding amp assignment- 'Internal amps are always on and are not turned off based on power amp assignments'. So it would seem to be a scenario of very little power (idle) versus no power (disconnected), as you said.
Regarding the previous concern of low preamp output voltage of unbalanced connections, I'm waiting on one of Dylan's 4-channel Hypex NC502MP builds and will address this issue for the Center channel (if there is a gain structure issue) with an Art CLEANBox Pro or similar line booster. It's unknown to me how much unacceptable noise may be introduced (to my acoustically unwashed ears ;-) but I have read some favorable results. I don't drive my system to reference levels, so the compromise may be positive for me.
If you don't need the RCA pre out for the center channel higher than 1.5 or even 2 V, why bother with that clean box thing that will likely do more harm than good anyway.
Gary7
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Hopefully, it won't be needed. The Hypex NC502MP module has a gain of 26dB and input sensitivity of 2.3v, but the resulting dB loss of output will likely be negligible (for me). I'll see how it pairs with the RX-A3080 RCA pre-outs for my needs.
As you already know, the difference is about 3 dB +/- 0.5 dB. So if you use XLR for the front L/R and RCA for the C channel then your level trim setting will likely be 3 dB higher for the C level. If you don't listen loud enough to have the volume set to say -15 or even -10 you will be in good shape. Obviously the center channel will then be effectively -12 to -10 because of the higher trim level setting. If you crank it up to 0 then the pre out signal may have higher distortion but to what level will have to be estimated by using an online spl calculator to first estimate roughly what would be the pre out level when watching a "THX" movie.
So in this circumstance. which I am also facing with three Outlaw 2220 amps connected to a 3080, you may need an Art CLEANBox Pro after all. It will most likely have less distortion at a high voltage output than the Yamaha going into the center channel Outlaw. The level mismatches and potential for increased center channel distortion. definitely calls into question the wisdom of using an external center external channel power amp in this situation.
Why not figure out what is the maximum pre out voltage you think you will ever need before buying something you decide on the CleanBox? If it is 1.5 V or even 2 V then adding that CleanBox thing will for sure just add more distortions for no reasons at all. Every time you add any amp stage to the preamp/dac signal chain you are going to add noise and distortions, there is no escaping for that unfortunately.
2 V pre out via unbalanced/RCA will drive the Hypex amp to 200 W 8 ohms, 400 W 4 ohms. The Outlaw 2220 would need about 1.6 V input to output its rated 200 W into 8 ohm.
It only takes a minute or two to figure out the power you need using any good spl calculator and from there you can easily calculate the maximum pre out voltage.
Peak SPL Calculator
Thanks so much for the explanation and link to the calculator.
Let me make sure I got this right. My main speakers are rated at 92 dB efficiency. The center speaker is rated at 91 dB efficiency. I used 92 dB as that's 2 out of 3. The three amps are rated at 200 watts each with 1.6 v needed for full output. I sit about 6 feet from the speakers. If I solve for 100 Peak SPL I will need .16 pre out voltage. (20/200 * 1.6) It's been 56 years since high school math for me!
After having had YPAO balance everything at original installation before I got the amps, I rebalanced everything with my trusty Radio Shack SPL meter for equal level from each speaker and got -7.5 dB Front L, -8.5 dB Front R, -3.0 dB Center (probably due to the 1 dB difference and the difference between balanced L/R compared to unbalanced center channel) and various plus figures for the various surround height figures . What I am concerned about is what will happen when I run YPAO again. If I remember correctly YPAO bases its level adjustments on the Front L speaker which is much more sensitive than the center or surrounds. Will YPAO drive the center pre-out and the surround and height channels into clipping?
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Trell
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Another handy online calculator for conversion is this one while navigating various specs:
dB dBu dBFS dBV to volts audio conversion digital - calculator volt to dBu and dBV dB mW SPL dB decibels 0 dBFS - convert dB volt normal decibels relatioship relation explanation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbf
dB dBu dBFS digital audio conversion dBV from dBu to volt, dBV to volt, volt to dBu and dBV dB decibels calculation SPL 0 dBFS normal decibels relationship relation explanation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbfs converter attenuation ratio reference convert...
For 200 W, 8 ohm, the output voltage will be sqrt (200*8) = 40 V and for 20 W, 8 ohm, the output voltage will be: sqrt (20*8) = 12.65 V
Input voltage = output voltage/gain (in multiples)
The gain (in multiples) of the Outlaw amp is 25 (or about 28 dB), therefore the input voltage for output voltage of 12.65 V = 12.65/25 = 0.506 V
The way you did it is actually great, it is a short cut, but you forgot the square/square root relationship in the power formula that is: P = V²/R, for a resistor load so it is not directly proportional.
So if 1.6 V input is needed for 200 W, you will need 1.6 X sqrt (20/200) = 1.6 X sqrt (0.1) = 0.506 V
All the formula you need can be found in the Sengpieaudio websites:
Ohm's law calculation calculator calculate power formulas mathematical ohm's law pie chart electric voltage drop electric current resistance formula watt's law emf magic triangle equation tip online voltage volts resitor resistance amps amperes audio
Ohm's law calculator calculation calculate ohms power formulas mathematical ohm's law pie chart electric voltage drop electric current resistance formula watt's law emf magic triangle tip online voltage volts resistor resistance amps amperes audio engineering E V = I R - P = V I calc...
Decibels to Voltage Gain and Loss convert calculation conversion amplification amplifier electronics - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
Gain and loss - damping and amplification in dB voltage conversioncalculation amplification amplifier electronics - field parameter - Eberhard Sengpiel sengpielaudio
There are many hyperlinks on those pages too, just click on the ones you are interested in to find the formula you need.
If you run YPAO again after connecting all the Hypex and Outlaw amps, your level trim settings will increase by about 3 dB for the channels powered by the Hypex amps and about 1 to 1.5 dB for the channels powered by the Outlaw amps.
Based on the information you have provided so far you do not need those voltage boosters at all because you are not going to exceed 1.5 V, not even close.
D
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This is a review and measurements of the Yamaha RX-A3080 Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly purchased by a member as a refurbished unit and sent to me.
View attachment 175862
This is last year's model and motivation for testing was that it shares the same amplification as this year's models which have very different interface. Current price for this unit is $1,999.
Here is the back side:
View attachment 175863
Like the inclusion of XLR inputs and outputs. Unit was factory reset before testing. The procedure is not in the menus and is quite obscure. Upon activation, it switched into Japanese, requiring some effort to figure out how turn it back into English. Why not make it easier to turn the unit into English? Vast majority of the world population can read the word English in an AV product so please, make it easy to set it to this language.
Peaking inside the unit, I see the usual cheap, bent spring steel for heatsinks rather than proper extruded aluminum. I expect the premier unit from Yamaha to do better here. This did reduce the weight some as I expected the unit to be heavier. And in my testing, it ran reasonably cool.
Yamaha RX-A3080 Measurements
As usual, I started to measure the DAC portion by using the pre-amp output, only to be punched in the face by the AVR going into protection mode. As far as I can tell, there is no way to shut off the amps so not only do they disturb the analog outputs, but also don't let you crank it up to full volume beyond what the internal amps can handle. What were they thinking? Have they fixed it in this year's model? Anyway, the motivation was the amplifier anyway so let's jump into that.
Here is our usual dashboard:
View attachment 175864
This type of performance lands the unit in the middle of the pack:
View attachment 175865
Distortion is actually better than this but we have a tall power supply (rectifier) induced spike at 120 Hz which is limiting SINAD. Signal to noise ratio is good actually:
View attachment 175866
My target is 96 dB at 5 watts and we are one bit short of that.
Frequency response is nice and flat given the non-switching amplifier:
View attachment 175867
Crosstalk was rather disappointing:
View attachment 175868
It is quite far from state of the art amplifier.
Multitone performance is good:
View attachment 175869
The bell of the ball in an AVR is amount of power it has so let's start with our usual 4 ohm load:
View attachment 175870
As you see, the curve is horizontal. It should usually slope down meaning as power increases, the ratio of output signal to residual noise improves. Here, the noise is scaling up which I am assuming is the aforementioned power supply noise at 120 Hz. So what starts at average to better than average performance, ends with almost tie with the worst measured.
Power level is healthy though and improves with higher allowance for distortion:
View attachment 175871
Switching to 8 ohm we see that we essentially get the company advertised power:
View attachment 175872
I was dismayed that I had to dial down the max power in the following test as the amp would go into protection mode at higher frequencies:
View attachment 175873
Conclusions
The weakness in the amplification stage of the RX-A3080 is actually its power supply generating rectification noise. Fortunately our threshold of hearing goes up at such a low frequency so audible performance would be better. Still, there was not much in these measurements to make me smile. You can do much better with Yamaha's competitors.
I can't recommend the Yamaha RX-A3080 as a whole or its for amplification.
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Thanks for the review!
I guess this could be added to the list of ever-growing sea of mediocre AVR’s.
Still hanging onto my Marantz AV8801 that I purchased new in 2013, Back when Marantz actually posted legitimate specifications, and a couple of the reviewers backed it up with measurements. Now… talk about companies resting on their 1990s laurels.
I don’t mean to sound angry because I’m not, but hopefully they don’t continue this assault on our common sense.
I don't want to seem like a raging fan boy but I really wonder if we are missing something and this result is actually not an "assault on our common sense".
Contrary to other AVRs the SINAD is bound by the PS noise at 120 Hz.
Our threshold for hearing is 20 dB at 120 Hz.
That means, if the 1 kHz tone is played at at 105 dB, the 120 Hz harmonic is just precisely at the hearing threshold. It would certainly be masked and even less audible if there is any noise floor in the room. Further, any loudspeaker would distort more.
If we would agree to ignore this one peak for this very reason, the highest remaining peak in the harmonic distortion is at around -95 dB, which is a tremendously good result...
I would not be surprised if Yamaha follows such reasoning in their design and actually takes quite some care to obtain good sound.
D
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I definitely get it, and I just bought (under $1000) one of the best reviewed, the best measuring (on ASR) two channel preamps, and I can’t tell the difference between it, and my going on 10 year old Marantz pre-pro. Basically indistinguishable, and I can switch between them quickly with an XLR switcher. After leveling the volume you’d never know which one is which.
Supposedly the Marantz‘s are measuring poorly, Although my AV8801 measured well when it came out. But its Burr Brown 32/192 DAC’s are supposed to be extinct and not sound very good by today’s status. Well I’ll be darned if I could tell the difference between them and a Topping D 90, May be a slight edge to the Topping. Anyway I’ll be hanging onto mine for a bit longer.
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D
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Read the last page or two of this link when you get a chance;
Why has the loudness war not ended yet?
That’s a real shame in my opinion, and I guess I have listened to the marketing fluff. I would think that I fall into that 99% and probably could not distinguish one over the other, so I’ll concede that. My next question would be… Is the Hi-Rez better for my gear? I know problems especially at...
www.audiosciencereview.com
These are guys that know what’s going on in the studios, and music industry, andI was really enlightened today. We’re not being told the truth about our music, and I don’t believe the music is up to snuff, even the Hi-res stuff like I thought it was. Loudness wars are still in place in a lot of studios I guess. Anyway I’m agreeing with you, I don’t think it has to measure perfect, and I think people are getting too caught up in it.
Look at my prior post, these are 10 year old DAC’s, and I can’t tell the difference between these and the new state of the art ones. I don’t like the reviewer’s that don’t measure, but I think the measurements are past the point of our hearing.
Suddenly one morning last week I got a very audible hum between my RX-A3080 and Outlaw 2220 center channel amp. They are connected together with an RCA cable. I attached a ground wire between the receiver and amp. That reduced the hum greatly to where you had to put your ear by the speakers to hear it. Then I noticed I was getting that soft hum from all three main speakers, including the L-R connected to the 3080 by XLR cables.
I re-read the Outlaw manual and disconnected the COAX cable from the cable box. No hum. Following Outlaw's recommendation, I inserted a Ground Loop Isolator between the COAX cable and the cable box. No hum. Why do I think the cable system doesn't play well with snow...
High end Yamaha receivers are unique in that they have XLR pre-outs for the front L-R channels. That may result in less hum and noise when connected to an external amp.
Also, and I don't know if Amir tried this, you can change the amp assignments on the 3080. P 131. I used 7.2.4 [ext.Front] and the front channel amps now power the "rear presence" speakers. You can't push a non-existant internal amp into clipping. FWIW you don't even have to have "rear presence" speaker in your system. The unused amps will just be powered at idle.
The review focuses only on the use with speakers. Whether this is influenced by the power amp settings would also be interesting to know. Amir already confirmed that he did not change any of the related settings.
I was also curious about using Eco Mode because if it is ps noise, a lower power use might affect it positively.
The preout itself does not seem to suffer from the 120 Hz ps noise. I posted a measurement a few posts back. This even holds when activating Ypao. Another user measured the pre-out a while back and got to a SINAD of almost 100 using better measurement equipment.
Seems as always with Yamaha - lots of settings to play with.
D
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I changed my vote to fine happy panther. I’m basing that off of the fact that I don’t think it’s easy to do everything correctly, especially at this price point. Add to that at what point is good enough… good enough?!
I have a nice Yamy analog tuner, pre-digital days, probably from the late 70s when they started to break away from the traditional look of the other manufacturers. This being said I remember going to though audio store where the Yamaha was featured, natural sound was the term back then, I don’t know if they still use it. Anyway I think within the next couple of years I’m going to finally give up my Marantz, and go with the Yamaha. I like separates, so as long as they make an AVR I’m on board. Yesterday was an eventful day, and I found out a lot of things about my own set up, and about the music we listen to. As great as all of the specifications are, and I want all of my gear to measure well, we’ve reached a point where just like this Yamaha, we can’t hear much of the differences. I found out yesterday that I cannot tell the difference between the DAC in my Topping D90 in the outdated nearly 10-year-old DACs in my AVR. As for me I’m done chasing my tail, and it’s time to button up my music room and enjoy the music.
Now, if they would start engineering, producing, and distributing music that can keep up with my gear… I’d be grateful.
I have a nice Yamy analog tuner, pre-digital days, probably from the late 70s when they started to break away from the traditional look of the other manufacturers. This being said I remember going to though audio store where the Yamaha was featured, natural sound was the term back then, I don’t know if they still use it. Anyway I think within the next couple of years I’m going to finally give up my Marantz, and go with the Yamaha. I like separates, so as long as they make an AVR I’m on board. Yesterday was an eventful day, and I found out a lot of things about my own set up, and about the music we listen to. As great as all of the specifications are, and I want all of my gear to measure well, we’ve reached a point where just like this Yamaha, we can’t hear much of the differences. I found out yesterday that I cannot tell the difference between the DAC in my Topping D90 in the outdated nearly 10-year-old DACs in my AVR. As for me I’m done chasing my tail, and it’s time to button up my music room and enjoy the music.
Now, if they would start engineering, producing, and distributing music that can keep up with my gear… I’d be grateful.
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