Wilson Audio TuneTot Review (high-end bookshelf speaker)

[GXAlan]

So you're basically against the whole philosophy of ASR

The philosophy of ASR is science, of which there are three pillars: experiment, theory and simulation.

Experimentation is what restorer-john is advising. It doesn’t mean you ignore level matching or blinding to reduce sighted bias — it means that there is value in comparisons between two speakers when the speakers and experiment are setup to avoid systematic bias.

Theory is preference score. A theory is a a carefully thought-out explanation for observations of the natural world that has been constructed using the scientific method, and which brings together many facts and hypotheses. Newton's law of universal gravitation was considered to be correct for centuries. However, Einstein's general relativity showed that for extremely massive and dense objects, there is a deviation from this law. It doesn’t mean that Newton’s law is wrong from a practical sense — just that deviations exist.

Amir cannot be against the philosophy of ASR — it’s worth reading the first post again. “If I were to just go by the measurements, the Tunetot would not get good marks. But I have promised you all that I won't lie about what I hear no matter how much of a conflict this provides. To that end, I am going to recommend the Wilson TuneTot with equalization (cost not considered).”

From the perspective of science, there should be curiosity of why this exists as an outlier. The more scientists (readers) that listen to speakers that might sound good despite numbers, the more data we get. Unlike classical physics, the preference score is trying to predict a preference for a majority. We don’t all love the same music, movies, food, or clothing. It’s amazing that there is a strong consistency between preference, but it’s not universal.

And then we have simulation, which I have seen people use to analyze different circuits (the JBL SA600 being one)

How do you view the “philosophy of ASR?”

 

[fpitas]

Maybe, but read our host's listening comments again. Even this very small Wilson has some very positive aspects to the sonics. You could expect larger models with less idiosyncratic tuning in the bass but the same build and driver qualities to do more of that, and thus sound rather good overall.

I'll state the obvious: for $10,000 I expect a lot of positive attributes. Especially from such a tiny thing.

 

[Axo1989]

I'll state the obvious: for $10,000 I expect a lot of positive attributes. Especially from such a tiny thing.

You may well do that, but keep in mind also that you probably aren't the target demographic. The little Wilsons have to match certain aesthetic and haptic characteristics common to their larger siblings, and 'value for money' isn't one of the relevant purchase criteria. That should also be 'obvious'.

 

[Ron Texas]

You trying to get the thread back on topic Ron?

Why would a joker like me try to do something nefarious like that, LOL.

 

[fpitas]

You may well do that, but keep in mind also that you probably aren't the target demographic. The little Wilsons have to match certain aesthetic and haptic characteristics common to their larger siblings, and 'value for money' isn't one of the relevant purchase criteria. That should also be 'obvious'.

Yes, that's marketing for you. On ASR we generally try to get something worthwhile for money, instead of giving it away pointlessly.

 

[Ron Texas]

Rich audiophiles that look at Wilson like they look at Mercedes .
They think it's the best, period
So it makes sense for them to pay that much

IMO, Mercedes is upper middle class except for their most expensive models. Before interest rates went up anyone could have bought a GLC which is their best seller. The really rich people either fly below the radar in a Lexus, Suburban or even a Wrangler unless they want to show off. Then they drive Bentley, Porsche or Range Rover. The extreme show offs (celebrities) buy Rolls or exotics. Rich political types in the US like Cadillacs.

 

[fpitas]

IMO, Mercedes is upper middle class except for their most expensive models. Before interest rates went up anyone could have bought a GLC which is their best seller. The really rich people either fly below the radar in a Lexus, Suburban or even a Wrangler unless they want to show off. Then they drive Bentley, Porsche or Range Rover. The extreme show offs (celebrities) buy Rolls or exotics. Rich political types in the US like Cadillacs.

My 2015 Civic isn't on that list? I paid a whole paycheck for it!!!

 

[Ron Texas]

@GXAlan where do things like the theory of evolution fit in where proof by experiment is not possible so a hypothesis may only be elevated to theory by accumulating overwhelming evidence. What if politics results in a lower threshold for what is overwhelming?

 

[Ron Texas]

My 2015 Civic isn't on that list? I paid a whole paycheck for it!!!

You are doing really well if you can buy any running car with a single paycheck. Old Hondas are what automotive journalists drive.

 

[fpitas]

You are doing really well if you can buy any running car with a single paycheck. Old Hondas are what automotive journalists drive.

Lol well, I'm used to better. But it's not a bad little thing for what it is.

 

[Axo1989]

Yes, that's marketing for you. On ASR we generally try to get something worthwhile for money, instead of giving it away pointlessly.

Pffft "worthwhile" is your value judgement. Tautologically so !! You judge what you value, others judge what they value.

 

[fpitas]

Pffft "worthwhile" is your value judgement. Tautologically so. You judge what you value, others judge what they value.

Being cynical by nature, I suspect their "value" is buying what they have been told.

 

[Tom C]

Pffft "worthwhile" is your value judgement. Tautologically so !! You judge what you value, others judge what they value.

This is absolutely true. If there’s one thing this site is about, it’s getting information to the buyer, and allowing the buyer to decide what’s worth it, and what’s not.

 

[fpitas]

This is absolutely true. If there’s one thing this site is about, it’s getting information to the buyer, and allowing the buyer to decide what’s worth it, and what’s not.

Yes. But how many Wilson buyers do you suppose come here and carefully digest the information?

 

[Tom C]

Yes. But how many Wilson buyers do you suppose come here and carefully digest the information?

None, I expect.

 

[Pearljam5000]

The philosophy of ASR is science, of which there are three pillars: experiment, theory and simulation.

Experimentation is what restorer-john is advising. It doesn’t mean you ignore level matching or blinding to reduce sighted bias — it means that there is value in comparisons between two speakers when the speakers and experiment are setup to avoid systematic bias.

Theory is preference score. A theory is a a carefully thought-out explanation for observations of the natural world that has been constructed using the scientific method, and which brings together many facts and hypotheses. Newton's law of universal gravitation was considered to be correct for centuries. However, Einstein's general relativity showed that for extremely massive and dense objects, there is a deviation from this law. It doesn’t mean that Newton’s law is wrong from a practical sense — just that deviations exist.

Amir cannot be against the philosophy of ASR — it’s worth reading the first post again. “If I were to just go by the measurements, the Tunetot would not get good marks. But I have promised you all that I won't lie about what I hear no matter how much of a conflict this provides. To that end, I am going to recommend the Wilson TuneTot with equalization (cost not considered).”

From the perspective of science, there should be curiosity of why this exists as an outlier. The more scientists (readers) that listen to speakers that might sound good despite numbers, the more data we get. Unlike classical physics, the preference score is trying to predict a preference for a majority. We don’t all love the same music, movies, food, or clothing. It’s amazing that there is a strong consistency between preference, but it’s not universal.

And then we have simulation, which I have seen people use to analyze different circuits (the JBL SA600 being one)

How do you view the “philosophy of ASR?”

The essence of the philosophy is if it doesn't measure well then it doesn't / shouldn't sound good

 

[GXAlan]

@GXAlan where do things like the theory of evolution fit in where proof by experiment is not possible so a hypothesis may only be elevated to theory by accumulating overwhelming evidence. What if politics results in a lower threshold for what is overwhelming?

Superseded theories in science - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The thresholds are political, and that is true in both directions. Even the most subjectivist, speaker cables and cable lifters make a difference fan would value and trust measurements that said product A was more or less precisely channel matched than product B. “Overwhelming” data can go in both directions.

 

[Axo1989]

Being cynical by nature, I suspect their "value" is buying what they have been told.

There will be cases where that's certainly true. But if you think that's all cases, you may be going on a little ego trip.

We all value different things, more or less legitimately. For example, you apparently value writing a list of your hi-fi gear and publishing it thousands of times over on an internet forum. I value never buying anything from Amazon. And so on.

 

[fpitas]

There will be cases where that's certainly true. But if you think that's all cases, you may be going on a little ego trip.

We all value different things, more or less legitimately. For example, you apparently value writing a list of your hi-fi gear and publishing it thousands of times over on an internet forum. I value never buying anything from Amazon. And so on.

OK, you've made your questionable point. Quite rudely. We won't talk anymore.

 

[Axo1989]

OK, you've made your questionable point. Quite rudely. We won't talk anymore.

You may not read this, but it wasn't an insult. People are different. I might think it's super-weird to make a list of my stuff as a signature. You might be super-proud of your DIY speakers. Both are more or less legitimate values. I might think Amazon is odious, exploitative and kills local/regional traders. You might love the convenience and pricing. Some people who like Wilson speakers may be victims of "marketing". Others might just really like certain actual/physical aspects of the product. And so on.