WiiM Amp discussion

[harkpabst]

Vfat was introduced with Windows 95 and was an extension to original Fat. It defined additional metadata to contain long filenames.

Exactly.

If that's what the spec sheet refers to? I highly doubt it

I don't know why WiiM chose this term in their specs, it's pretty weird and not exactly helpful.

Edit: Thinking about this one more time, @somebodyelse might still has pointed into the right direction. They might just have substituted the actually supported file system names with the name of the Linux driver.

Still not very clever, but probably explains their thinking (since technically the WiiM Amp's software is Linux based).

 

[somebodyelse]

Ye sooo young

Vfat was introduced with Windows 95 and was an extension to original Fat. It defined additional metadata to contain long filenames. Ever seen C:\Progra~1 ??

If only Just going with the more likely explanation given current usage of the terms. IIRC WinNT got it first, but that may just be fond memories of 3.51

 

[volteon]

The problem with this product is it cuts into his base. You cannot tell your viewers that you can buy a competently built stereo for 300 when you make your living off of sponsorships and deals wirh high end companies.

The review was kinda strange to me.

Usually he looks on the bright sight of products, if there is something negative to say it gets balanced out favorably with following positive aspects.
This time the other way around: lots of nitpicking and „but“ arguments, pretty much any known issue got pointed out.

Why suggest the Sonos Amp (for twice the price) as alternative, if he didnt even tested it yet. Why give the product the worst setup (huge room, not favorable speakers etc.) and focus on things which are missing - instead of looking opportunities, which he usually does.

It could have been easy: good for beginners, good for second setup in bedroom, good for small budget…turns out it wasnt on his agenda.

 

[wbenjin]

Does anyone use the wiim amp with Kef R3 Meta? If yes what is your experience?

Just listen to my KEF R3 Meta with WiiM Amp at 3.5m distance, everything works fine, can easily go to uncomfortable loud with 60% volume.

 

[grogi.giant]

The review was kinda strange to me.

Usually he looks on the bright sight of products, if there is something negative to say it gets balanced out favorably with following positive aspects.
This time the other way around: lots of nitpicking and „but“ arguments, pretty much any known issue got pointed out.

Why suggest the Sonos Amp (for twice the price) as alternative, if he didnt even tested it yet. Why give the product the worst setup (huge room, not favorable speakers etc.) and focus on things which are missing - instead of looking opportunities, which he usually does.

It could have been easy: good for beginners, good for second setup in bedroom, good for small budget…turns out it wasnt on his agenda.

For me the credibility was completely lost in "The Hidden Costs of CHEAP AMPS!" video... Never watched another one...

 

[wbenjin]

Just listen to my KEF R3 Meta with WiiM Amp at 3.5m distance, everything works fine, can easily go to uncomfortable loud with 60% volume.

Update: I just done simple A/B listening with WiiM Amp and Yamaha R-N800A, and I think the difference are clearly audible. I have no tools to measure power amplifier so can only provide subjective opinion: women voice of WiiM Amp is dull or "less sweet" or whatever audiophile terms they use (hope you got my point), and the bass are deeper with R-N800A. I do not make assumption which one is better, just listening to my usual Spotify playlist with WiiM Amp and feel something is going wrong, after switching to R-N800A sound becomes better. I rarely notice such a audible difference from audio electronic. After all this is just my subjective perception, so I think if you alrealy spent $2000 on R3 Meta you will probrably want to get a better amp other than WiiM Amp.

 

[ninetylol]

Update: I just done simple A/B listening with WiiM Amp and Yamaha R-N800A, and I think the difference are clearly audible. I have no tools to measure power amplifier so can only provide subjective opinion: women voice of WiiM Amp is dull or "less sweet" or whatever audiophile terms they use (hope you got my point), and the bass are deeper with R-N800A. I do not make assumption which one is better, just listening to my usual Spotify playlist with WiiM Amp and feel something is going wrong, after switching to R-N800A sound becomes better. I rarely notice such a audible difference from audio electronic. After all this is just my subjective perception, so I think if you alrealy spent $2000 on R3 Meta you will probrably want to get a better amp other than WiiM Amp.

Post two REW measurements as proof and I may believe your head

 

[antcollinet]

Update: I just done simple A/B listening with WiiM Amp and Yamaha R-N800A, and I think the difference are clearly audible. I have no tools to measure power amplifier so can only provide subjective opinion: women voice of WiiM Amp is dull or "less sweet" or whatever audiophile terms they use (hope you got my point), and the bass are deeper with R-N800A. I do not make assumption which one is better, just listening to my usual Spotify playlist with WiiM Amp and feel something is going wrong, after switching to R-N800A sound becomes better. I rarely notice such a audible difference from audio electronic. After all this is just my subjective perception, so I think if you alrealy spent $2000 on R3 Meta you will probrably want to get a better amp other than WiiM Amp.

I'm guessing you've not accurately level matched since you've said you don't have any measurement gear. Even tiny level differences of less than a DB - which are inaudible as a volume change - will give the impression of a quality difference. This is most likely what you are hearing.

 

[wbenjin]

I'm guessing you've not accurately level matched since you've said you don't have any measurement gear. Even tiny level differences of less than a DB - which are inaudible as a volume change - will give the impression of a quality difference. This is most likely what you are hearing.

What I said is I "have no tools to measure power amplifier", i.e. high power resistive load. I have Cosmos ADC and other handy tools. Since I have no dummy load I decide to use REAL load (KEF R3 Meta) to perform measurement. Level are set to my usual listening level. I've done some simple measurements but first just look at frequency response and phase graphs:

Yamaha clearly shows flatter frequency and phase response, compared to WiiM Amp. Beside freq and phase, Yamaha also have better THD+N and SNR (about 4dB).
I don't know how to link these numbers and graphs to my subjective perception, but AFAIK from measurements, R-N800A are better amplifier and supposed to sounds better.

 

[Miker 1102]

The review was kinda strange to me.

Usually he looks on the bright sight of products, if there is something negative to say it gets balanced out favorably with following positive aspects.
This time the other way around: lots of nitpicking and „but“ arguments, pretty much any known issue got pointed out.

Why suggest the Sonos Amp (for twice the price) as alternative, if he didnt even tested it yet. Why give the product the worst setup (huge room, not favorable speakers etc.) and focus on things which are missing - instead of looking opportunities, which he usually does.

It could have been easy: good for beginners, good for second setup in bedroom, good for small budget…turns out it wasnt on his agenda.

Yeah. I think he just has a problem with this level of product. Plus acting like it wasn't getting to 75db and complaining about the sound. I found it pretty enjoyable for stereo. I was going to surprise my wife with a small two channel and this thing is perfect.

 

[Miker 1102]

Amen.

What filesystem are you currently using on your thumb drive? Many years ago NTFS used to be a nightmare for Linux based systems, but right now it looks like many WiiM Amp users are reporting the least trouble with NTFS formatted drives. Official WiiM specs don't even mention FAT32, but just "VFAT", which is not a well defined term in my book.

I usually just use NTFS but somebody said they had luck worh fat 32. It kind brought me back to my PC building days always struggling with partioning and running windows or Linux of flash drives. I am going to mess with it again tonight. I blew out a KEF driver and had to replace it. The third time for a q series. I love the sound of these but even crossover 100hz. I should play more than 75db or I am going to be shit out of luck. I like to listen around 82 on my avr.

 

[harkpabst]

What I said is I "have no tools to measure power amplifier", i.e. high power resistive load. I have Cosmos ADC and other handy tools. Since I have no dummy load I decide to use REAL load (KEF R3 Meta) to perform measurement. Level are set to my usual listening level. I've done some simple measurements but first just look at frequency response and phase graphs:
View attachment 347784

View attachment 347785
Yamaha clearly shows flatter frequency and phase response, compared to WiiM Amp. Beside freq and phase, Yamaha also have better THD+N and SNR (about 4dB).
I don't know how to link these numbers and graphs to my subjective perception, but AFAIK from measurements, R-N800A are better amplifier and supposed to sounds better.

What exactly did you measure here and how? Output voltage at the speaker terminals vs. input voltage? Or is it actually sound pressure level recorded with a microphone (as implied by the titles of the graph)? If so, this measurement appears to be smoothed out quite a bit (and flat extension to 20 Hz seems unlikely).

The "terrible peak" around 8 kHz is less then 0.5 dB. This alone is not a good explanation for the differences you perceived. Have you tried playing around with EQ? I would if I would be e.g. missing bass.

I'm really just asking out of interest. Given it's price, the Yamaha should be better in one way or the other (or even in all ways). For me the WiiM Amp is just more than good enough for my bedroom system. I don't expect it to be on par with my main system. But I like it so far.

 

[grogi.giant]

What exactly did you measure here and how? Output voltage at the speaker terminals vs. input voltage? Or is it actually sound pressure level recorded with a microphone (as implied by the titles of the graph)? If so, this measurement appears to be smoothed out quite a bit (and flat extension to 20 Hz seems unlikely).

The "terrible peak" around 8 kHz is less then 0.5 dB. This alone is not a good explanation for the differences you perceived. Have you tried playing around with EQ? I would if I would be e.g. missing bass.

I'm really just asking out of interest. Given it's price, the Yamaha should be better in one way or the other (or even in all ways). For me the WiiM Amp is just more than good enough for my bedroom system. I don't expect it to be on par with my main system. But I like it so far.

The treble peak is manifestation of load dependency.

Those are screenshots from REW. Smoothing is either 1/3 octave, or psychoacoustic smoothing. The legend is skipped, so I can't tell.

 

[grogi.giant]

Phase

What I said is I "have no tools to measure power amplifier", i.e. high power resistive load. I have Cosmos ADC and other handy tools. Since I have no dummy load I decide to use REAL load (KEF R3 Meta) to perform measurement. Level are set to my usual listening level. I've done some simple measurements but first just look at frequency response and phase graphs:
View attachment 347784

View attachment 347785
Yamaha clearly shows flatter frequency and phase response, compared to WiiM Amp. Beside freq and phase, Yamaha also have better THD+N and SNR (about 4dB).
I don't know how to link these numbers and graphs to my subjective perception, but AFAIK from measurements, R-N800A are better amplifier and supposed to sounds better.

Phase is same in both, you just did not use correct timing reference.

Is was said many times, that unless TPA3255 has PFFB loop, it has a bit load dependency in treble region. R3 Meta has high impedance in the treble...

That's what you are seeing there.

 

[wbenjin]

What exactly did you measure here and how? Output voltage at the speaker terminals vs. input voltage? Or is it actually sound pressure level recorded with a microphone (as implied by the titles of the graph)? If so, this measurement appears to be smoothed out quite a bit (and flat extension to 20 Hz seems unlikely).

The "terrible peak" around 8 kHz is less then 0.5 dB. This alone is not a good explanation for the differences you perceived. Have you tried playing around with EQ? I would if I would be e.g. missing bass.

I'm really just asking out of interest. Given it's price, the Yamaha should be better in one way or the other (or even in all ways). For me the WiiM Amp is just more than good enough for my bedroom system. I don't expect it to be on par with my main system. But I like it so far.

Since I call R3 Meta the "load" I am measuring the amplifier itself, measured at amplifier binding post. No smoothing at all. Sorry for confusion.

I am not trying to explain why I feel R-N800A sounds better than WiiM Amp, just providing my honest subjective opinion and some objective measurements, to show someone that I heard the difference, and also measured the difference, but not going to relate them, because I am not the pro in this field.

 

[harkpabst]

The treble peak is manifestation of load dependency.

Those are screenshots from REW. Smoothing is either 1/3 octave, or psychoacoustic smoothing. The legend is skipped, so I can't tell.

Pretty sure it is, but I would not have expected it to kick in at 8 kHz. Anyway, I doubt it's relevant.

I agree with your assumptions regarding smoothing.

 

[antcollinet]

Level are set to my usual listening level.

Not sufficient to eliminate level as a confounding factor. You need to level match using a test tone to 1% at the speaker terminals with a volt meter.

Assuming your plots above are taken at the same time, with the mic position identical, then you're showing around 1/2dB difference between 1 and 2 kHz.

 

[harkpabst]

Since I call R3 Meta the "load" I am measuring the amplifier itself, measured at amplifier binding post. No smoothing at all. Sorry for confusion.

I am not trying to explain why I feel R-N800A sounds better than WiiM Amp, just providing my honest subjective opinion and some objective measurements, to show someone that I heard the difference, and also measured the difference, but not going to relate them, because I am not the pro in this field.

Thanks for clarification. No mic involved then. I tend to think that there is little to be learned from these measurements then. But that's not the point.

Firstly, I will not tell you that you did not hear what you heard. But I agree with @antcollinet that your impressions can be heavily influenced by tiny differences in level. The older I get, the less I care about tonal differences, especially if you can take care of them by applying EQ. I was really serious in recommending that you try out what difference EQ settings would make to your observations.

WiiM have announced that beta tests of integrated room correction for the Amp should start by the end of January. I will happily wait and see what they'll have on the shelf.

 

[wbenjin]

WiiM have announced that beta tests of integrated room correction for the Amp should start by the end of January. I will happily wait and see what they'll have on the shelf.

Integrated Room Correction will be great!

 

[SVO]

Just got mine via Crutchfield so easy enough return if there is trouble, but I doubt it. Lots of shade being thrown at the WiiM forum, most of it BS without objective foundation such as reduced "weight" at low volumes. Class D hating is a popular sport. The NAD then the SVS amps are the closest comp- HDMI ARC being the key feature rather than physical appearance.