As an owner of dual REL T/5i subs, do you mind if I play this game as well?But am curious what your reasoning was in buying that particular sub (or what your options were).
Interesting but I'd still not bother with Rel. Sealed vs ported as well as Rel reputation for "audiophile" are mostly nonsense. But maybe if you're in the UK?As an owner of dual REL T/5i subs, do you mind if I play this game as well?
The REL T/5i — on sale at $499 each (March 2020) — met all of the requirements above (especially size and finish!!!); and the "REL Magic" was viewed as an incremental benefit. Their marketing is effective; but it was not the primary selection criteria since the REL T/5i was the only possible sub from REL that I would even consider based on affordability and size. Even though their sizing calculator indicated I should have ordered REL T/7i, but it was too expensive to consider (and larger than I wanted).
- Small size. We were in a 834 sq ft, 2 BR apartment; the small living room area included our dining table, TV & audio rack, couch, and my wife's loom.
- Finish (piano white). The subs were in our only living area; so having something that aesthetically blended in well was very important.
- Apartment life. While loud SPL and deep low bass would be great for us, the neighbors next to us and below would strongly disagree. Thus, I was not focused on the LFE range (e.g., below 30Hz) or an ability to play loud.
- Focal Aria 906 (6.5" mid-woofer). My focus was primarily to pick up the lower-end of the music range (and "average" movie effects in a typical movie) that are just beyond what the Focal could deliver; primarily in the 32Hz to 80Hz range.
- Musicality. Equally critical was a sub that would easily integrate "seamlessly" in the cross-over from the 906 to the Subwoofer. An 8" woofer or 10" woofer can fit this range nicely, retaining a small footprint. A few of the sealed 12" subwoofers were potential, but they really pushed hard against the upper limits of #1 and #3 above.
- Sealed Sub. For a lot of reasons (some right, some wrong), I have remained focused on sealed subs over ported subs.
- Dual Subs. Because the room is so small and because we have no options for treating the room, I wanted 2 subs to allow for smoother response.
- Affordable. Was ideally looking for subs in the $300 range, but could go up to $500 per sub.
- High Level Input. I was not in a position to invest heavily in DSP and room correction software to calibrate the integration between subwoofers and speakers (largely due to lack of any time). So the ability to use speaker connections was very helpful.
- [DSP Sound Be Avoided]. But full disclosure: at that time, I still believe that "Pure Direct" mode on my Denon AVR was the best (and the only right) way to listen to 2-channel music. So even if I had the time to invest in room correction, I still would not have. Which meant a requirement for speaker-level inputs... which nearly all small subs offer anyway.
- [REL "Magic Musicality"]. On this, I didn't know any better at the time. I believed their method of speaker-level input was an advantage. I believed that using an 8" woofer would be "faster" and more "musical" in the 35Hz - 80Hz range. I believed that if the primary focus was music, buy REL; and if the focus is movies, buy SVS or HSU. And I always prioritize music over movies.
Looking back, now that we I am in a larger rental house, I'd prefer to have a pair of SVS SB-1000s. They were larger than I wanted, but otherwise meet all of the requirements above (except #10 ). However, I also had a fear that their 12" subwoofer (with no DSP) would not mesh quite as seamlessly with the Focal 6.5" mid-woofers, compared against an 8"or 10" subwoofer. Given the size factor and our very small living space at that time, I think I still would have selected the REL T/5i.
Beyond SVS, I don't recall any other subwoofer options that included Piano White or another nice finish option that were (a) affordable, and (b) well regarded.
Of course, now that I am in a rental house with a larger living room (14' x 20', open hall to kitchen and stairs), I am trying to figure out if I am better off selling the pair of REL T/5i subwoofers and picking up a dual SB-1000 and an SB-2000 (for 3 total), or just keeping the two very nicely sized REL T/5is (placing them close to the Aria's) and adding an SVS SB-2000 or SVS-3000 in the back of the room to round out the nodes and help fill in the deeper bass range.
What sub would you recommend (under $500 / €500) against the criteria I listed? I'm not sure I would have ordered REL T/5i in hindsight either... but I also do not know of any better contenders than potentially the SVS SB-1000.Interesting but I'd still not bother with Rel. Sealed vs ported as well as Rel reputation for "audiophile" are mostly nonsense. But maybe if you're in the UK?
I have to say, a lot of this has gone completely over my head. But I liked the parts I was able to understand.Subs aren't for bass guitar frequencies unless your mains are really wimpy. The fundamental (especially low E or lower) is a small part of the signal relative to the harmonics. The signal chain is quite frequently high-passed fairly high, what low frequencies are there tend to be rumble and mud; live amplification has the same problems as hi-fi reproduction, that very low frequencies eat amp power and ruin speakers, and you have even less control of room interaction. Effective highpassing at 80hz or higher is not uncommon. (Among other things this is why you don't use a bass guitar amp as a subwoofer amp, at least unless you can completely bypass the preamp section.)
Organ for organ weirdos, or keyboard / synth / any modern music where the instruments are pure virtual, are a different story. As are TV/movie SFX.
People also use subs to improve midbass kick, or free up their mains to do the same, i.e. have more headroom for transient response for real / simulated kickdrum beats (or various impact SFX)
Hear hear, good response on all fronts. I too was attracted by the high level inputs. When I started reading the instructions on connecting to a Class-D amp vs a differential amp vs a class-AB, all based on the ground-level, my head went spinning. I mean to ask questions about that one day at ASR.[REL "Magic Musicality"]. On this, I didn't know any better at the time. I believed their method of speaker-level input was an advantage. I believed that using an 8" woofer would be "faster" and more "musical" in the 35Hz - 80Hz range. I believed that if the primary focus was music, buy REL; and if the focus is movies, buy SVS or HSU. And I always prioritize music over movies.
Your vintage sealed cabs roll off at 100hz or higher. The classic Ampeg fridge variants roll off anywhere from 55 to 80hz. Ported cabs go lower but frequently get farty until you turn the lows down. Then you have built in high-pass in the amp (preamp) which in old amps is usually fixed, in modern amps may be adjustable; A Mesa Subway adjusts from 30-125hz, for instance. Rarely do you get below 35hz - the old SWR amps that advertised to go down near to DC were notorious cab killers. The common Broughton high-pass filter pedal adjusts from 25-190hz or so, and center default is 80 hz. I have an fdeck pedal that adjusts from 35-140hz.
Keep in mind these HPFs are all cumulative, and live the FOH is dialing your lows out anyway if you don't beat them to it, because it's uncontrollable rumble.
People think bass cabs go low because they have big drivers (or they try to use sub drivers in a bass cab, with terrible results) but that's almost always for SPL and efficiency, not low extension. A bass cab built for sub frequencies would be as big and heavy as an actual (PA) subwoofer and no one wants to drag that thing in and out of a van. "Shouldn't my cab be able to reproduce the low E" is like the number 1 misconception for newer bass players and it's only worse for 5-string / BEAD types.
For more see for instance https://www.talkbass.com/threads/high-pass-filter-hpf-and-low-pass-filter-lpf-mega-thread.1333720/
Rel has very well known issues with amps breaking down all the time, and the company that is very difficult and expensive to get replacements. For that alone I would never consider them. Google rel plate amps and you will see...By the way, I see quite a bit of REL vitriol here, but not a lot of proof or measurements or clear explanations.
I have something like 3000 movies on disk or on my NAS. I doubt more than half a dozen of them even activate my subwoofer let alone would be compromised if I didn't have one. I've never understood the need to differentiate between movies and music in this respect. All audio can benefit from a subwoofer to be accurately reproduced, but my sub certainly gets far more exercise on music listening than movie/tv watching. If a movie is only engaging with overblown crash bang effects then it's probably not worth watching anyway. Hardly a justification to get subwoofer ...For movies, it’s a must have.
If music is only engaging with low frequencies in it then it's probably not worth listening to anyways? No?If a movie is only engaging with overblown crash bang effects then it's probably not worth watching anyway. Hardly a justification to get subwoofer ...
With the sub I notice things even in "regular" movies. For example car doors closing, or footsteps on wooden floorboards, or room murmur.If music is only engaging with low frequencies in it then it's probably not worth listening to anyways? No?
Movies and series nowadays also have soundtracks with plenty of low frequencies. Blade Runner 2049 comes to mind as does Jack Ryan episodes I recently watched. I remember the low bass in soundtracks more vividly than explosion, although there probably were those as well.
As for effects that have value I remember the scene in LOTR when the balrog is introduced. You don't see the thing but if you have your subwoofer game on point you can imagine what sort of beast is approaching and it's not just an orc with a few years of weightlifting under it's belt. You kind of miss the effect director intended by using for example LS50s. Is that effect needed? No, of course not, but the experience is not the same without.
Absolutely. Music where the bass is the only interesting feature is usually just as silly as films that rely on bass effects for 'excitement'. I'm not arguing against good and accurate bass down to 20 Hz, I just don't get that movies are in any way 'special' in this respect.If music is only engaging with low frequencies in it then it's probably not worth listening to anyways? No?
Blade Runner 2049 ... Jack Ryan episodes ... LOTR
If a movie is only engaging with overblown crash bang effects then it's probably not worth watching anyway.
But if you only watch real movies, for example French art stuff where single mom makes dinner for three hours at glacial pace then subwoofer is useless. Heck, some of the realest masterpieces have no sound at all, what would a sub do then? Same thing with music: listening to artist play harmonica recorded inside his beat up 1972 VW Beetle can be done without 18 inchers.I should have said movies and shows. The Sandman on Netflix has some ominous low frequency rumbles that’s really add tension.
The latest Bond has a scene where he visits a tomb in Italy and it goes from oh so quiet to a startling make you jump all courtesy of a powerful sub.
Almost every recent movie has effects that vibrate the seats/floors in my HT. Could be that I watch at a higher volume and mostly movies from 2010 and newer.
But subs can sure make it more fun to enjoy them....In any case a sub is not a precondition to enjoying movies nor music. Nor, for that matter, are state-of-the-art amps/dacs/monitors
If you only listen to baroque chamber music (or other perfectly enjoyable but narrow bandwidth music) then a subwoofer is going to be a silly addition to your system.Absolutely. Music where the bass is the only interesting feature is usually just as silly as films that rely on bass effects for 'excitement'. I'm not arguing against good and accurate bass down to 20 Hz, I just don't get that movies are in any way 'special' in this respect.
I rest my case. Let's just say we have a different taste in movies ... ;-)
Sorry, yes, the signal chain for the bass guitar instrument tends to be highpassed, so a subwoofer shouldn't provide much boost to hearing it. The rest of the music may be another matter.Perhaps I misunderstood you. You're implying that the output of bass guitars are often high passed at 80hz, not that entire recordings are high passed at 80hz?
Even if you don't listen to music that has anything below 30hz, everything is connected. If you can't play audible SPL at 20hz, then your 30-40hz output is probably insufficient as well and vice versa.For music only 30Hz response is in 95% of the cases enough to hear everything.
The best way to answer that is to measure your own space, because bass output is *heavily* affected by room size and sub placement. But just to reiterate, people usually underestimate what they need. Some illustration may help.A lot of us getting a sub are not looking necessarily to "get to 16Hz with authority" as Chrispy put it I think. We're trying to add back low frequency missing from our bookshelf speakers. Exactly what sarumbear said. What products are effective for that? What are their limitations?