Why the fuss with subwoofer specs and brands?

[ryanosaur]

???

 

[rcstevensonaz]

But am curious what your reasoning was in buying that particular sub (or what your options were).

As an owner of dual REL T/5i subs, do you mind if I play this game as well?

1. Small size. We were in a 834 sq ft, 2 BR apartment; the small living room area included our dining table, TV & audio rack, couch, and my wife's loom.
2. Finish (piano white). The subs were in our only living area; so having something that aesthetically blended in well was very important.
3. Apartment life. While loud SPL and deep low bass would be great for us, the neighbors next to us and below would strongly disagree. Thus, I was not focused on the LFE range (e.g., below 30Hz) or an ability to play loud.
4. Focal Aria 906 (6.5" mid-woofer). My focus was primarily to pick up the lower-end of the music range (and "average" movie effects in a typical movie) that are just beyond what the Focal could deliver; primarily in the 32Hz to 80Hz range.
5. Musicality. Equally critical was a sub that would easily integrate "seamlessly" in the cross-over from the 906 to the Subwoofer. An 8" woofer or 10" woofer can fit this range nicely, retaining a small footprint. A few of the sealed 12" subwoofers were potential, but they really pushed hard against the upper limits of #1 and #3 above.
6. Sealed Sub. For a lot of reasons (some right, some wrong), I have remained focused on sealed subs over ported subs.
7. Dual Subs. Because the room is so small and because we have no options for treating the room, I wanted 2 subs to allow for smoother response.
8. Affordable. Was ideally looking for subs in the $300 range, but could go up to $500 per sub.
9. High Level Input. I was not in a position to invest heavily in DSP and room correction software to calibrate the integration between subwoofers and speakers (largely due to lack of any time). So the ability to use speaker connections was very helpful.
10. [DSP Should Be Avoided]. Full disclosure: at that time, I still believe that "Pure Direct" mode on my Denon AVR was the best (and the only right) way to listen to 2-channel music. So even if I had the time to invest in room correction, I still would not have. Which meant a requirement for speaker-level inputs... which nearly all small subs offer anyway.
11. [REL "Magic Musicality"]. On this, I didn't know any better at the time. I believed their method of speaker-level input was an advantage. I believed that using an 8" woofer would be "faster" and more "musical" in the 35Hz - 80Hz range. I believed that if the primary focus was music, buy REL; and if the focus is movies, buy SVS or HSU. And I always prioritize music over movies.

The REL T/5i — on sale at $499 each (March 2020) — met all of the requirements above (especially size and finish!!!); and the "REL Magic" was viewed as an incremental benefit. Their marketing is effective; but it was not the primary selection criteria since the REL T/5i was the only possible sub from REL that I would even consider based on affordability and size. Even though their sizing calculator indicated I should have ordered REL T/7i, but it was too expensive to consider (and larger than I wanted).

Looking back, now that we I am in a larger rental house, I'd prefer to have a pair of SVS SB-1000s. They were larger than I wanted, but otherwise meet all of the requirements above (except #10 ). However, I also had a fear that their 12" subwoofer (with no DSP) would not mesh quite as seamlessly with the Focal 6.5" mid-woofers, compared against an 8"or 10" subwoofer. Given the size factor and our very small living space at that time, I think I still would have selected the REL T/5i.

Beyond SVS, I don't recall any other subwoofer options that included Piano White or another nice finish option that were (a) affordable, and (b) well regarded.

Of course, now that I am in a rental house with a larger living room (14' x 20', open hall to kitchen and stairs), I am trying to figure out if I am better off selling the pair of REL T/5i subwoofers and picking up a dual SB-1000 and an SB-2000 (for 3 total), or just keeping the two very nicely sized REL T/5is (placing them close to the Aria's) and adding an SVS SB-2000 or SVS-3000 in the back of the room to round out the nodes and help fill in the deeper bass range.

 

[Chrispy]

As an owner of dual REL T/5i subs, do you mind if I play this game as well?

1. Small size. We were in a 834 sq ft, 2 BR apartment; the small living room area included our dining table, TV & audio rack, couch, and my wife's loom.
2. Finish (piano white). The subs were in our only living area; so having something that aesthetically blended in well was very important.
3. Apartment life. While loud SPL and deep low bass would be great for us, the neighbors next to us and below would strongly disagree. Thus, I was not focused on the LFE range (e.g., below 30Hz) or an ability to play loud.
4. Focal Aria 906 (6.5" mid-woofer). My focus was primarily to pick up the lower-end of the music range (and "average" movie effects in a typical movie) that are just beyond what the Focal could deliver; primarily in the 32Hz to 80Hz range.
5. Musicality. Equally critical was a sub that would easily integrate "seamlessly" in the cross-over from the 906 to the Subwoofer. An 8" woofer or 10" woofer can fit this range nicely, retaining a small footprint. A few of the sealed 12" subwoofers were potential, but they really pushed hard against the upper limits of #1 and #3 above.
6. Sealed Sub. For a lot of reasons (some right, some wrong), I have remained focused on sealed subs over ported subs.
7. Dual Subs. Because the room is so small and because we have no options for treating the room, I wanted 2 subs to allow for smoother response.
8. Affordable. Was ideally looking for subs in the $300 range, but could go up to $500 per sub.
9. High Level Input. I was not in a position to invest heavily in DSP and room correction software to calibrate the integration between subwoofers and speakers (largely due to lack of any time). So the ability to use speaker connections was very helpful.
10. [DSP Sound Be Avoided]. But full disclosure: at that time, I still believe that "Pure Direct" mode on my Denon AVR was the best (and the only right) way to listen to 2-channel music. So even if I had the time to invest in room correction, I still would not have. Which meant a requirement for speaker-level inputs... which nearly all small subs offer anyway.
11. [REL "Magic Musicality"]. On this, I didn't know any better at the time. I believed their method of speaker-level input was an advantage. I believed that using an 8" woofer would be "faster" and more "musical" in the 35Hz - 80Hz range. I believed that if the primary focus was music, buy REL; and if the focus is movies, buy SVS or HSU. And I always prioritize music over movies.

The REL T/5i — on sale at $499 each (March 2020) — met all of the requirements above (especially size and finish!!!); and the "REL Magic" was viewed as an incremental benefit. Their marketing is effective; but it was not the primary selection criteria since the REL T/5i was the only possible sub from REL that I would even consider based on affordability and size. Even though their sizing calculator indicated I should have ordered REL T/7i, but it was too expensive to consider (and larger than I wanted).

Looking back, now that we I am in a larger rental house, I'd prefer to have a pair of SVS SB-1000s. They were larger than I wanted, but otherwise meet all of the requirements above (except #10 ). However, I also had a fear that their 12" subwoofer (with no DSP) would not mesh quite as seamlessly with the Focal 6.5" mid-woofers, compared against an 8"or 10" subwoofer. Given the size factor and our very small living space at that time, I think I still would have selected the REL T/5i.

Beyond SVS, I don't recall any other subwoofer options that included Piano White or another nice finish option that were (a) affordable, and (b) well regarded.

Of course, now that I am in a rental house with a larger living room (14' x 20', open hall to kitchen and stairs), I am trying to figure out if I am better off selling the pair of REL T/5i subwoofers and picking up a dual SB-1000 and an SB-2000 (for 3 total), or just keeping the two very nicely sized REL T/5is (placing them close to the Aria's) and adding an SVS SB-2000 or SVS-3000 in the back of the room to round out the nodes and help fill in the deeper bass range.

Interesting but I'd still not bother with Rel. Sealed vs ported as well as Rel reputation for "audiophile" are mostly nonsense. But maybe if you're in the UK?

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Interesting but I'd still not bother with Rel. Sealed vs ported as well as Rel reputation for "audiophile" are mostly nonsense. But maybe if you're in the UK?

What sub would you recommend (under $500 / €500) against the criteria I listed? I'm not sure I would have ordered REL T/5i in hindsight either... but I also do not know of any better contenders than potentially the SVS SB-1000.

Also, can you share any quality ported subs that do not substantially increase the size of the box viz. a viz. a sealed sub (when LFE deep bass with high SPL is not a primary criteria)? As I mentioned, not all of my reasons for preferring sealed over ported are valid — I'd be very interested in reconsidering sealed vs. ported against the criteria I listed.

And in case you missed my subtle self-deprecation ("before I knew better") and typographically setting the last two criteria in square brackets, I clearly agreed REL's reputation for "audiophile" is just marketing in the modern world of stereo amps with sub-outs, AVR receivers, and a plethora of DSP options. I didn't know or believe that DSP was the better way to go a few years ago... but I've come along way during the pandemic.

That said, I'm not convinced that REL didn't have an advantage back in the days when they hung off of a 2-channel only stereo amp and before the DSP built into subwoofers was both affordable and high quality. And even today, the SVS SB-1000 Pro still remains outside my budget window.

 

[jsilvela]

Subs aren't for bass guitar frequencies unless your mains are really wimpy. The fundamental (especially low E or lower) is a small part of the signal relative to the harmonics. The signal chain is quite frequently high-passed fairly high, what low frequencies are there tend to be rumble and mud; live amplification has the same problems as hi-fi reproduction, that very low frequencies eat amp power and ruin speakers, and you have even less control of room interaction. Effective highpassing at 80hz or higher is not uncommon. (Among other things this is why you don't use a bass guitar amp as a subwoofer amp, at least unless you can completely bypass the preamp section.)

Organ for organ weirdos, or keyboard / synth / any modern music where the instruments are pure virtual, are a different story. As are TV/movie SFX.

People also use subs to improve midbass kick, or free up their mains to do the same, i.e. have more headroom for transient response for real / simulated kickdrum beats (or various impact SFX)

I have to say, a lot of this has gone completely over my head. But I liked the parts I was able to understand.
With low frequencies and room eq. and subwoofers, I see a bit of that, generally. Experienced people giving fairly arcane info that beginners can't parse or act on.
A lot of us getting a sub are not looking necessarily to "get to 16Hz with authority" as Chrispy put it I think. We're trying to add back low frequency missing from our bookshelf speakers. Exactly what sarumbear said. What products are effective for that? What are their limitations?

Reminds me of myself telling friends curious about coding to buy the Cormen/Leiserson book "Algorithms".

 

[jsilvela]

[REL "Magic Musicality"]. On this, I didn't know any better at the time. I believed their method of speaker-level input was an advantage. I believed that using an 8" woofer would be "faster" and more "musical" in the 35Hz - 80Hz range. I believed that if the primary focus was music, buy REL; and if the focus is movies, buy SVS or HSU. And I always prioritize music over movies.

Hear hear, good response on all fronts. I too was attracted by the high level inputs. When I started reading the instructions on connecting to a Class-D amp vs a differential amp vs a class-AB, all based on the ground-level, my head went spinning. I mean to ask questions about that one day at ASR.

I am now using an RCA splitter off of my preamp to feed the sub via line level. And I think if my experiments with DSP to room-EQ via my computer are successful, I may buy a miniDSP. So, in the end the "no AVR/DSP required" advantage may peter out.

By the way, I see quite a bit of REL vitriol here, but not a lot of proof or measurements or clear explanations.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Your vintage sealed cabs roll off at 100hz or higher. The classic Ampeg fridge variants roll off anywhere from 55 to 80hz. Ported cabs go lower but frequently get farty until you turn the lows down. Then you have built in high-pass in the amp (preamp) which in old amps is usually fixed, in modern amps may be adjustable; A Mesa Subway adjusts from 30-125hz, for instance. Rarely do you get below 35hz - the old SWR amps that advertised to go down near to DC were notorious cab killers. The common Broughton high-pass filter pedal adjusts from 25-190hz or so, and center default is 80 hz. I have an fdeck pedal that adjusts from 35-140hz.

Keep in mind these HPFs are all cumulative, and live the FOH is dialing your lows out anyway if you don't beat them to it, because it's uncontrollable rumble.

People think bass cabs go low because they have big drivers (or they try to use sub drivers in a bass cab, with terrible results) but that's almost always for SPL and efficiency, not low extension. A bass cab built for sub frequencies would be as big and heavy as an actual (PA) subwoofer and no one wants to drag that thing in and out of a van. "Shouldn't my cab be able to reproduce the low E" is like the number 1 misconception for newer bass players and it's only worse for 5-string / BEAD types.

For more see for instance https://www.talkbass.com/threads/high-pass-filter-hpf-and-low-pass-filter-lpf-mega-thread.1333720/

Perhaps I misunderstood you. You're implying that the output of bass guitars are often high passed at 80hz, not that entire recordings are high passed at 80hz?

 

[Webninja]

For music only, stereo, depending on genre and your main speakers you might not need a sub.

For movies, it’s a must have. I mistakenly did the order of my upgrades incorrectly and bought the AVR then external amps for my 7.4 system. So no subs, for almost 2 years.

I added 2 Monoprice 10” subs and a 13” (long story), but wow are movies different. You don’t get the heart racing, emotional connection without that sub bass. The external amps in my opinion weren’t noticeable in most of my listening.

Music sounds better too, but not as big of an impact for me as movies.

 

[Waxx]

For music only 30Hz response is in 95% of the cases enough to hear everything. Lower is only needed with some organ music and electronic music with heavy bass. And for most mainstream music 40Hz is already enough. It's almost only for HT that infrasubs (below 30Hz) are needed to hear it all. So it's up to you what you want to archive.

But extra subs can help to fight room modes in the low frequencies, see the theorie of Earl Geddes for that: http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/multiple subs.pdf

 

[Waxx]

By the way, I see quite a bit of REL vitriol here, but not a lot of proof or measurements or clear explanations.

Rel has very well known issues with amps breaking down all the time, and the company that is very difficult and expensive to get replacements. For that alone I would never consider them. Google rel plate amps and you will see...

 

[bluefuzz]

For movies, it’s a must have.

I have something like 3000 movies on disk or on my NAS. I doubt more than half a dozen of them even activate my subwoofer let alone would be compromised if I didn't have one. I've never understood the need to differentiate between movies and music in this respect. All audio can benefit from a subwoofer to be accurately reproduced, but my sub certainly gets far more exercise on music listening than movie/tv watching. If a movie is only engaging with overblown crash bang effects then it's probably not worth watching anyway. Hardly a justification to get subwoofer ...

 

[bodhi]

If a movie is only engaging with overblown crash bang effects then it's probably not worth watching anyway. Hardly a justification to get subwoofer ...

If music is only engaging with low frequencies in it then it's probably not worth listening to anyways? No?

Movies and series nowadays also have soundtracks with plenty of low frequencies. Blade Runner 2049 comes to mind as does Jack Ryan episodes I recently watched. I remember the low bass in soundtracks more vividly than explosion, although there probably were those as well.

As for effects that have value I remember the scene in LOTR when the balrog is introduced. You don't see the thing but if you have your subwoofer game on point you can imagine what sort of beast is approaching and it's not just an orc with a few years of weightlifting under it's belt. You kind of miss the effect director intended by using for example LS50s. Is that effect needed? No, of course not, but the experience is not the same without.

 

[jsilvela]

If music is only engaging with low frequencies in it then it's probably not worth listening to anyways? No?

Movies and series nowadays also have soundtracks with plenty of low frequencies. Blade Runner 2049 comes to mind as does Jack Ryan episodes I recently watched. I remember the low bass in soundtracks more vividly than explosion, although there probably were those as well.

As for effects that have value I remember the scene in LOTR when the balrog is introduced. You don't see the thing but if you have your subwoofer game on point you can imagine what sort of beast is approaching and it's not just an orc with a few years of weightlifting under it's belt. You kind of miss the effect director intended by using for example LS50s. Is that effect needed? No, of course not, but the experience is not the same without.

With the sub I notice things even in "regular" movies. For example car doors closing, or footsteps on wooden floorboards, or room murmur.
Without the sub I recognize the sounds. With, I wonder if they're coming from my house, or the neighbor's car.
In Blade Runner 2049, Sapper Morton's hut in the beginning, the footsteps on the dingy floor sound so real.

In any case a sub is not a precondition to enjoying movies nor music. Nor, for that matter, are state-of-the-art amps/dacs/monitors

 

[bluefuzz]

If music is only engaging with low frequencies in it then it's probably not worth listening to anyways? No?

Absolutely. Music where the bass is the only interesting feature is usually just as silly as films that rely on bass effects for 'excitement'. I'm not arguing against good and accurate bass down to 20 Hz, I just don't get that movies are in any way 'special' in this respect.

Blade Runner 2049 ... Jack Ryan episodes ... LOTR

I rest my case. Let's just say we have a different taste in movies ... ;-)

 

[Webninja]

If a movie is only engaging with overblown crash bang effects then it's probably not worth watching anyway.

I should have said movies and shows. The Sandman on Netflix has some ominous low frequency rumbles that’s really add tension.

The latest Bond has a scene where he visits a tomb in Italy and it goes from oh so quiet to a startling make you jump all courtesy of a powerful sub.

Almost every recent movie has effects that vibrate the seats/floors in my HT. Could be that I watch at a higher volume and mostly movies from 2010 and newer.

 

[bodhi]

I should have said movies and shows. The Sandman on Netflix has some ominous low frequency rumbles that’s really add tension.

The latest Bond has a scene where he visits a tomb in Italy and it goes from oh so quiet to a startling make you jump all courtesy of a powerful sub.

Almost every recent movie has effects that vibrate the seats/floors in my HT. Could be that I watch at a higher volume and mostly movies from 2010 and newer.

But if you only watch real movies, for example French art stuff where single mom makes dinner for three hours at glacial pace then subwoofer is useless. Heck, some of the realest masterpieces have no sound at all, what would a sub do then? Same thing with music: listening to artist play harmonica recorded inside his beat up 1972 VW Beetle can be done without 18 inchers.

 

[Chrispy]

In any case a sub is not a precondition to enjoying movies nor music. Nor, for that matter, are state-of-the-art amps/dacs/monitors

But subs can sure make it more fun to enjoy them....

 

[Mr. Widget]

Absolutely. Music where the bass is the only interesting feature is usually just as silly as films that rely on bass effects for 'excitement'. I'm not arguing against good and accurate bass down to 20 Hz, I just don't get that movies are in any way 'special' in this respect.



I rest my case. Let's just say we have a different taste in movies ... ;-)

If you only listen to baroque chamber music (or other perfectly enjoyable but narrow bandwidth music) then a subwoofer is going to be a silly addition to your system.

Same is true of film soundtracks. If you watch exclusively movies from the golden age of cinema or even some contemporary films without much LF content then I would agree, but most films today do have some extremely low frequency content that you often don't even realize is there in a properly set up room.

 

[Prana Ferox]

Perhaps I misunderstood you. You're implying that the output of bass guitars are often high passed at 80hz, not that entire recordings are high passed at 80hz?

Sorry, yes, the signal chain for the bass guitar instrument tends to be highpassed, so a subwoofer shouldn't provide much boost to hearing it. The rest of the music may be another matter.

 

[Sancus]

For music only 30Hz response is in 95% of the cases enough to hear everything.

Even if you don't listen to music that has anything below 30hz, everything is connected. If you can't play audible SPL at 20hz, then your 30-40hz output is probably insufficient as well and vice versa.

A lot of us getting a sub are not looking necessarily to "get to 16Hz with authority" as Chrispy put it I think. We're trying to add back low frequency missing from our bookshelf speakers. Exactly what sarumbear said. What products are effective for that? What are their limitations?

The best way to answer that is to measure your own space, because bass output is *heavily* affected by room size and sub placement. But just to reiterate, people usually underestimate what they need. Some illustration may help.

Here are some sweeps from my system up to 200hz.

Notes: This is intentionally oversmoothed so it's easier to understand. The 100hz dip on the 105dB line is a measurement mistake on my part, not compression. The 115dB measurement is probably invalid because UMIK-1 compresses at 112dB unless you open it up and change the gain dip switches, but it's there for fun.

So you can see my system plays almost dead flat up to 100dB, pretty good up to 105dB, and by 110dB there's compression from 50hz that reaches -4dB by 20hz. Now, some might say "well that's crazy loud" and that's not true either. I've measured 107dB bass peaks in classical music at 77dB average SPL. I'm not going to say >105dB is a common scenario, but >100dB happens all the time in the content I listen to.

I have a pretty capable dual sub setup. It's easy to see why 1 12" sub would not be sufficient here. The speakers would be heavily sub limited. In fact, even with my subs, the speakers are still sub limited! Only 1 8351B is playing here and it starts to compress ~150hz at 110dB. With 2 or more speakers playing(multichannel) the subs actually start compressing well before the speakers.

This is why I always tell people to worry more about sub output for HT, less so speakers. Most HT setups are sub limited.

If you perform this test, and you're happy with the result, then you don't need more sub power. But there IS a use for large subs, if you want a true full range system that is dead flat to 20hz you probably need 2+ good sized subs. Unless your room is super tiny.

My system is linked in my signature, but just for completeness: I have 2x Arendal 1723 2S optimized with MSO and Audyssey. These are fairly large(not huge) sealed subs each with 2 opposed 13.8" drivers and 1200W. My space is relatively small, it's an 1100sqft 2bed apartment, the living area is ~500-600sqft.