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Why has Audio (and maybe all hobbies) become so hostile?

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Drone/doom

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I own both and they are different beasts. The ER4SR has great performance and is one IEM that has the lasting power to stay in my collection but can never capture the sound-stage and the bass of the HD800.

The HD800 has 5db in the 80 to 500Hz area while the ER4SR is 0db with a DF netural tuning. Never understood the soundstage bit when the IEM was all about binaural and that imo is pretty weak excuse when 3D sound DSP's can be used in Foobar. Try the SR with a 5db bass boost low shelf at 150Hz.
 

Lbstyling

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First, I should start by saying that I am not trying to start some war, but am frustrated/confused by the hostility I see on some forums. I am posting this here, as I believe that there will actually be a thoughtful discussion that won't devolve into a war of insults.

A little about me. I am a 40 something that has been enthralled with audio since I was 10. My dad was a musician who trained in Opera. His entertaining partner a composer who was married to a classical pianist. I spent a lot of time as a child sitting next to a 1912 Chickering concert grand, probably why my litmus test for speakers is how a piano sounds. I am in the middle of the objective/subjective beliefs. I believe that measurements tell us a great deal about how equipment sounds, but also that we have not yet been able to quantify and correlate everything we hear. I also believe that cables can make a minor difference in sound, but not due to any magical properties, but basic differences in LCR (I swear that I hear a difference between Kimber 4VS and Wireworld Helicon 16, with the Helicon being slightly smoother (rolled off) on the top end). I also believe that the listening room and speakers are by far the largest determinate in how a system sounds and 95+ percent of what makes a system sound good is speaker/room matching.

Finally, I try to be honest in my own biases. I believe that most of us have preferences that deviate from a "flat wire with gain". In my case, I am very sensitive to high frequencies (I was close to a loud explosion as a child that left me with permanent tinnitus that is getting worse as I get older). Combine that sensitivity with with my preference for rock, which can vary from well mixed to horrible, and I prefer equipment that is on the warm syrupy side of things, which I know is not the most "accurate" but gives me the most listening pleasure. Give me a pair of speakers with a nice little midbass hump and slightly rolled off high end any day of the week.

Having gotten that out of the way, I constantly watch threads on forums devolve into flat out personal attacks (i.e. this is the best amplifier in the world and if you don't like it you are deaf and stupid). In regard to this forum and Amir, on other forums I saw negative comments (and after looking further, downright nasty and extremely hostile personal attacks) which of course made me come and look here. Ironically what I saw here was a lot more tolerance and intellectual discourse than in many other places (AVS Forums seems to be the other forum where they still stay civil).

I think a lot of what bothers me is time and time again seeing a new person coming in and looking for guidance and three posts later it has devolved into a war not involving the original poster's question that then goes on for another 50-100 posts. This bothers me in large parts as with companies like Massdrop, Schiit (I know there is a less than pleasant history with Amir and Schiit), Emotiva, Tekton, and a myrad of others, there is finally a resurgence in affordable, good audio equipment and an opportunity to grow the audio community with young people instead of a bunch of old guys bitching.

So trying to focus in on what bothers me (and this seems to go beyond just audio groups):

1) What happened to being civil to each other?
2) Why has audio become a personal religion rather than a fun hobby?
3) Why can people not be intellectually honest with themselves (i.e. I know it measures like shit, but I like the way it sounds)?
4) When did people become unable to separate personal preferences from fact?

Again, sorry to the extent I am rambling, but this is something that just constantly sits there in the back of my mind.

Cary


It has nothing to do with any of this.

It's the times we live in.

2 words.

Income inequality.

Google the social effects in history of this.

We have evolved to handle this problem in tribal situations just like monkeys.

It's a a real eye opener to the world you live in right now to understand it.

I believe I'm correct in saying there is no example of sustained high levels of income Inequality in civilisation that don't end in civil unrest.

There's an itch the world wants to collectively scratch, and this drives a social pattern in the way everyone interests with other individuals that passes on to the collective.

People don't assume others are part of their tribe. How they identify their tribe is up to them, but recent riots may give 1 indication of the way some involved vent this.
 
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Vapor9

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What the hell are you talking about? Are you that stupid!?! ---- Just kidding.

I understand what you are saying and I think the internet's perceived anonymity has a lot to do with. Many people would not say half of what they say on the web if they were your neighbor. This and the fact that everyday (and often all day) multi-tasking has seem to have made patience and time a precious commodity.
 

Vapor9

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It has nothing to do with any of this.

It's the times we live in.

2 words.

Income inequality.

Google the social effects in history of this.

We have evolved to handle this problem in tribal situations just like monkeys.

It's a a real eye opener to the world you live in right now to understand it.

I believe I'm correct in saying there is no example of sustained high levels of income I equality in civilisation that don't end in civil unrest.

There's an itch the world wants to collectively scratch, and this drives a social pattern in the way everyone interests with other individuals that passes on to the collective.

People don't assume others are part of their tribe. How they identify their tribe is up to them, but recent riots may give 1 indication of the way some involved vent this.

I agree with much of what you're saying here.
 

Jimbob54

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It has nothing to do with any of this.

It's the times we live in.

2 words.

Income inequality.

Google the social effects in history of this.

We have evolved to handle this problem in tribal situations just like monkeys.

It's a a real eye opener to the world you live in right now to understand it.

I believe I'm correct in saying there is no example of sustained high levels of income I equality in civilisation that don't end in civil unrest.

There's an itch the world wants to collectively scratch, and this drives a social pattern in the way everyone interests with other individuals that passes on to the collective.

People don't assume others are part of their tribe. How they identify their tribe is up to them, but recent riots may give 1 indication of the way some involved vent this.

I don't think this would get you very many marks in a sociology exam. Or any exam.

Relevance. Lack of.
 

Lbstyling

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I don't think this would get you very many marks in a sociology exam. Or any exam.

Relevance. Lack of.

I respect your opinion.

As I partly write exams for a living, that made me chuckle.

Exams test memory retention, application of specific concepts and techniques across different scenarios, and conformity of 'approved' subject terminology.

As rhetoric and approved narrative is used to frame ideas, the last one is very interesting.

Exams means little in terms of evaluating wide multi variant causal effects. That's why you don't do exams in your PhD.

-'Happiness' as a self reported metric is statistically closely corrilated to 'success relative to peers'.
-As inequality rises, this has a larger net negative effect on a population.
-To go on a limb and state that unhappy people complain more doesn't feel like much of a stretch to me.

If sociology as a field stuck to measurable, verifiable data sets I would feel that failing a sociology exam would be a larger faux Pas than perhaps I feel it is at the moment.

Unfortunately, as it stands the bar in the social sciences is set rather low to get a PhD right now.....
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0309132515623368

Yup. That low.
 
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Jimbob54

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I respect your opinion.

As I partly write exams for a living, that made me chuckle.

Exams test memory retention, application of specific concepts and techniques across different scenarios, and conformity of 'approved' subject terminology.

As rhetoric and approved narrative is used to frame ideas, the last one is very interesting.

Exams means little in terms of evaluating wide multi variant causal effects. That's why you don't do exams in your PhD.

And income inequality does not explain why two folks bicker endlessly, possibly falling into uncivil dialogue, about the merits or otherwise of DSD v PCM.

As a driver of wider conflict in society, absolutely agree. At a micro level, nah.
 

RayDunzl

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RayDunzl

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World GDP - $80,934,771,028,340

World Population - 7,800,000,000

Equal income = $10,376.25/yr, $864/mo, $123.52/week, $3.08/hr for a 40 hr work week.

Everyone not feeling equal, raise yo' miserable hand up.

...

Uh-huh.
 
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Lbstyling

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And income inequality does not explain why two folks bicker endlessly, possibly falling into uncivil dialogue, about the merits or otherwise of DSD v PCM.

As a driver of wider conflict in society, absolutely agree. At a micro level, nah.

Evidence suggests no.

Check out 'behave' by Robert Sapolsky for the micro effects of inequality in monkeys.

If you think about it, looking for a logical reason for someone to fall into uncivil dialogue over DSD Vs PCM (or whatever survivaly trivial matter) is ..well, unfruitful.

I read the thread title as:
'what has changed to make it worse recently', not why do people bicker. People have always bickered over nothing to some degree.
 
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Jimbob54

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Evidence suggests no.

Check out 'behave' by Robert Sapolsky for the micro effects of inequality in monkeys.

I'd rather not thanks. When monkeys create hi-fi equipment then have heated debates about it I'll be sure to refer them to that study.

On that note, I shall retire from this potential conflict about causes of conflict before it causes conflict.
 

Kling75

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iseebitterpeople.jpg
iseebitterpeople.jpg
 

Lbstyling

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World GDP - $80,934,771,028,340

World Population - 7,800,000,000

Equal income = $10,376.25/yr, $864/mo, $123.52/week, $3.08/hr for a 40 hr work week.

Everyone not equal,, raise yo' miserable hand up.

...

Uh-huh.

Perfect!! 10/10.

You suggest logic.

If only we could get ourselves to think like this.

Unfortunately, we rank ourselves against our peers. That's the problem. We just haven't evolved to let the frontal cortex win enough.
 
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Lbstyling

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What the hell are you talking about? Are you that stupid!?! ---- Just kidding.

I understand what you are saying and I think the internet's perceived anonymity has a lot to do with. Many people would not say half of what they say on the web if they were your neighbor. This and the fact that everyday (and often all day) multi-tasking has seem to have made patience and time a precious commodity.

The price for altercation online is next to zero. I would wager winning a big argument could deliver a sizable dopamine hit though. That's a massive risk return ratio....too much to say no to for some.

The psychological cost of loosing is twice as powerful as the kick of winning. So when ppl are 'on the ropes' they also fight harder.
 

Zensō

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Some people in this hobby (and others) appear to have a strong desire to be seen/heard, to feel as if their personal opinions matter to others. Measurements often invalidate these subjective opinions, undermining the feeling of importance gained by developing a carefully curated, online "audio guru" personae. I think this is why some individuals on the "subjective" forums have such exaggerated, visceral reactions to any mention of objectivity or measurements.
 
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Colonel7

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Exams means little in terms of evaluating wide multi variant causal effects. That's why you don't do exams in your PhD.
Not on subject (then again neither is inequality) but what country are you in that PhDs don't have required qualifying and/or comprehensive exams?
 

Lbstyling

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Some people in this hobby (and others) appear to have a strong desire to be seen/heard, to feel as if their personal opinions matter to others. Measurements often invalidate these subjective opinions, undermining the feeling of importance gained by developing a carefully curated, online "audio guru" personae. I think this is why some individuals on the "subjective" forums have what appears to be such an exaggerated, visceral reaction to any mention of objectivity or measurements.
Not on subject (then again neither is inequality) but what country are you in that PhDs don't have required qualifying and/or comprehensive exams?

Depends what you mean by 'exam'.

A formal expert panel is usually required at the end of the process where the thesis is argued against by the panel and defended by the student, as well as informal discussion of where the student is at is the process at earlier stages. I'm not aware of an 'exam' as in sat down answer questions on a paper in PhDs anywhere I've heard of? How would you even do such a thing?
 

Jimbob54

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Evidence suggests no.

Check out 'behave' by Robert Sapolsky for the micro effects of inequality in monkeys.

If you think about it, looking for a logical reason for someone to fall into uncivil dialogue over DSD Vs PCM (or whatever survivaly trivial matter) is ..well, unfruitful.

I read the thread title as:
'what has changed to make it worse recently', not why do people bicker. People have always bickered over nothing to some degree.

Nope, you don't get do overs in exams. You've changed at least 2 of your posts significantly since I replied to add a little more relevance. Poor form.
 

Wes

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Audio has become a personal religion rather than a fun hobby b/c you can make a LOT more money off the religious than off of mere hobbyists
 

Wes

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Depends what you mean by 'exam'.

A formal expert panel is usually required at the end of the process where the thesis is argued against by the panel and defended by the student, as well as informal discussion of where the student is at is the process at earlier stages. I'm not aware of an 'exam' as in sat down answer questions on a paper in PhDs anywhere I've heard of? How would you even do such a thing?

Typically qualifying and/or comprehensive exams occur before the dissertation is defended - they often serve as a way for enemies of the student's major professor to get their jollies in on them by attacking the student...

The "defense" is merely a presentation to a wider audience, and a warm up for job seminars. If a student flunks that, then their committee has made a stupendous error earlier on.

The PhD essentially means that "we think you are capable of conducting science without the supervision of a graduate committee, and we hereby loose you on a hapless world."
 
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