Why can't we just ignore inane audio threads?

[Multicore]

As a (non-engineer) scientist, let me share a thought: I am very grateful for this forum. Through Amir, and many others with helpful comments here, we now know that you can put together an excellent system, streamer/DAC, amp, speakers, headphones (with the new MacBooks no need for a separate headphone amp/DAC) for not much more than a thousand dollars. That's less than a fifth of what our snake oil friends pay for a power cord.

True. But the other side of that coin: at the end of the day what have you both got? You've got something that plays audio while he (I think it's fair to presume) has magic.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

True. But the other side of that coin: at the end of the day what have you both got? You've got something that plays audio while he (I think it's fair to presume) has magic.

Oh, if that were only true! For a few subjectivists, it's end-game, but for the majority, the bottomless rabbit-hole of upgrade-itis and items that are "new, improved and even more magical" will dog them all their life. Every purchase will produce ecstasy ... temporarily. Eventually, the inevitable let-down will start the search all over again.

If there is magic in that, it's from Mordor!

Jim

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Where are all these debates about the last 1dB of SINAD? is there a section of the forum I don't have access to? Or is this just a bit of a strawman?

exactly. It's a strawman that gets repeated over and over again on this forum and I'll respond to it whenever I see it. SINAD is not something that is over-emphasized around here ftmp. It's just a measuring stick to try and bring some sort of separation between stuff that otherwise basically is indistinguishable.

I don't frequent any other audio forums anymore and I don't give a rat's behind what gets said on those. But this one, it's called Audio Science Review, and one of it's primary goals is to bring some sort of objective methodology to the task of achieving good sound and to cut through the reams of BS that gets accepted whole cloth on those other forums. So, if someone starts a thread here claiming they can hear all sorts of magic from their new speaker cables or their new dac or whatever other completely neutral thing they just spent a bunch of money on and I see that thread...I might very well respond and raise a few issues. If we here at this specific forum don't do so, what is this even about? All this would end up being would be a bunch of threads where people make all the same sorts of claims they do on other audio forums and never get challenged on them. It's kind of the whole point of this place.

Having said that, I do definitely have a limit to how far along I will go. I say my piece, and I'll debate a bit, but there will come a point where I'll just decide it's time to ignore the little notification and let the thread go on without me.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Oh, if that were only true! For a few subjectivists, it's end-game, but for the majority, the bottomless rabbit-hole of upgrade-itis and items that are "new, improved and even more magical" will dog them all their life. Every purchase will produce ecstasy ... temporarily. Eventually, the inevitable let-down will start the search all over again.

If there is magic in that, it's from Mordor!

Jim

I think the hunt for better and better devices is not limited to the "subjectivists". Someone else might also keep buying new devices because they objectively have a better SINAD and are available at bargain prices.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I think the hunt for better and better devices is not limited to the "subjectivists". Someone else might also keep buying new devices because they objectively have a better SINAD and are available at bargain prices.

sure, but there at least the choice is being made based on something real, rather than something imaginary. I mean getting a bit better SINAD is something at least (probably not an audible something of course unless we're talking about devices that are significantly far apart in SINAD), as opposed to getting nothing or even something potentially worse in some way. The bargain price is a non-negligible benefit as well of course.

 

[DanielT]

A super duper amp with excellent SINAD that clipp at 10 Watt, which cannot cope with low Ohms in a good way. Is it a good amp? Absolutely with the right type of speakers. Wrong type of speaker paired with that amp then it is a disaster. So this with SINAD must be taken into account with the context, the whole.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

A super duper amp with excellent SINAD that clipp at 10 Watt, which cannot cope with low Ohms in a good way. Is it a good amp? Absolutely with the right type of speakers. Wrong type of speaker paired with that amp then it is a disaster. So this with SINAD must be taken into account with the context, the whole.

I mean...yeah. Obviously. And?

 

[JoetheLion]

I think the hunt for better and better devices is not limited to the "subjectivists". Someone else might also keep buying new devices because they objectively have a better SINAD and are available at bargain prices.

Good point. I think the advantage of this forum is that you can find lots of interesting points of view. But there is no objective truth, just as there is no objective "better". It always depends on your own criteria, not just for the "subjectivists". I recently read a discussion here that I found very helpful about Class D amplifiers. Class D amplifiers are undoubtedly efficient, but that's only half the story. Everyone can have different "objective" preferences, different opinions about what efficiency actually means. You get so much good information here that you can't get anywhere else.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Good point. I think the advantage of this forum is that you can find lots of interesting points of view. But there is no objective truth, just as there is no objective "better".

If one speaker's frequency response looks like this:
***************************2000hz---------------6000****************************************************************+10db
**************----1000hz*****************************-----10000******************************************************0db
20hz-----500*****************************************************10kz--------------------------------12khz***********-10db


and another speaker's freq response looks like this:


20hz---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------20khz 0db


is one objectively better than the other or not?

edit - lol...well my little diagram didn't work the way I wanted, but you get my drift I think. *kinda fixed it

 

[Mnyb]

It's a fair comparison. For 3 years I lived in Germany opposite this locally famous pharmacist. Notice the red text in the window display. (And as good catholics they didn't stock contraceptives.) The word homöopathie commonly covered any chemical treatment that's not under government supervision. I think we can compare American supplements market to all that continental stuff and let's throw in some of those Heilkurs too.

View attachment 335976

I had a dear friend who was transitioning career from software engineer to Homöopathische Theraputin but she was strictly into the ultra-dilution method and crystals. Now that I can respect. That's commitment to alchemical magick.

Homeopaty is literaly nothing or say absolutely pure placebo it's still dangerous ofcourse as people take nothing instead of real medicine ... but the preparations themself are pure nothing ?

 

[JoetheLion]

If one speaker's frequency response looks like this:
***************************2000hz---------------6000 +10db
**************----1000hz*****************************-----10000 0db
20hz-----500*****************************************************-------------------------------------12khz -10db


and another speaker's freq response looks like this:


20hz---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------20khz 0db


is one objectively better than the other or not?

edit - lol...well my little diagram didn't work the way I wanted, but you get my drift I think.

If I measure two speakers in an anechoic chamber and one has a "worse" frequency response than the other, what does that mean? For my real room, in which I correct the frequency response with Dirac anyway, for example? Then I would prefer the one that sounds better in my room after DSP. And if both are the same: the cheaper one, for example. Or the nicer one. Or... Its depends on your criteria. Nevertheless, the measurements are important information for me. Among others.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

If I measure two speakers in an anechoic chamber and one has a "worse" frequency response than the other, what does that mean? For my real room, in which I correct the frequency response with Dirac anyway, for example? Then I would prefer the one that sounds better in my room after DSP. And if both are the same: the cheaper one, for example. Or the nicer one. Or... Its depends on your criteria. Nevertheless, the measurements are important information for me. Among others.

if you are applying EQ in your room, which you of course should, why in the world would you want to start with a speaker that is already all over the place in FR?

Anyway, all I'm suggesting is that the nice, "kumbaya, hey man it's all just opinions and every opinion is valid" thinking is really not very useful to anyone other than the person who's opinion we are talking about. If I'm looking for an amp or something, I can get buy quite well with just the measurements. I definitely can't get by with just the opinions. If there's a thread on a forum where someone is talking about his new amp and how wonderful it is and it's so worth the 3 grand for sure and I buy it, and then while I'm awaiting delivery I see the measurements showing it has a totally V shaped signature - all bass and treble no mids - I'd be pretty disappointed because that is distinctly not what I consider to be a good amp. There has to be some other baseline for defining "good" than "everyone's opinion is valid."

 

[JoetheLion]

if you are applying EQ in your room, which you of course should, why in the world would you want to start with a speaker that is already all over the place in FR?

Anyway, all I'm suggesting is that the nice, "kumbaya, hey man it's all just opinions and every opinion is valid" thinking is really not very useful to anyone other than the person who's opinion we are talking about. If I'm looking for an amp or something, I can get buy quite well with just the measurements. I definitely can't get by with just the opinions. If there's a thread on a forum where someone is talking about his new amp and how wonderful it is and it's so worth the 3 grand for sure and I buy it, and then while I'm awaiting delivery I see the measurements showing it has a totally V shaped signature - all bass and treble no mids - I'd be pretty disappointed because that is distinctly not what I consider to be a good amp. There has to be some other baseline for defining "good" than "everyone's opinion is valid."

I did not say everyone's opinion is valid. To quote the beginning of this thread: "We are a ridiculous small group of the population that cares about the exact same thing... music quality." Good SINAD is important, up to a certain point. Beyond that, it doesn't matter. Even better SINAD does not mean better musical quality. One person may then decide to buy the DAC that is entered in the Guinness Book of Records, while another prefers the one in 10th place of Amirs ranking because it meets other criteria. Both are objectively good enough.

 

[Mr. Widget]

True. But the other side of that coin: at the end of the day what have you both got? You've got something that plays audio while he (I think it's fair to presume) has magic.

Oh, if that were only true! For a few subjectivists, it's end-game, but for the majority, the bottomless rabbit-hole of upgrade-itis and items that are "new, improved and even more magical" will dog them all their life. Every purchase will produce ecstasy ... temporarily. Eventually, the inevitable let-down will start the search all over again.

If there is magic in that, it's from Mordor!

Jim

I agree with both of you.

The magic in Hi-Fi is real... it is not measurable, you can't quantify it, you can't even accurately define it, but for the guy (yes, almost always a guy) who bought the snake like power cable dripping in oil, he is basking in the glory of his most recent acquisition and is positively thrilled by the experience. (It doesn't have to be a frivolous cable, it can be a class A amp, discovering some NOS tubes etc.)

Then a day, a week, a month, or year later the new shine dulls and he is off to the next upgrade or tweak. That never ending quest for audio nirvana is definitely not healthy for the pocketbook or the spirit.

I still miss the magic... but eventually we have to grow up.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I did not say everyone's opinion is valid. To quote the beginning of this thread: "We are a ridiculous small group of the population that cares about the exact same thing... music quality." Good SINAD is important, up to a certain point. Beyond that, it doesn't matter. Even better SINAD does not mean better musical quality. One person may then decide to buy the DAC that is entered in the Guinness Book of Records, while another prefers the one in 10th place of Amirs ranking because it meets other criteria. Both are objectively good enough.

absolutely. We are in full agreement wrt SINAD. Can you point me to a thread here where anyone has suggested that somebody needed to buy a dac (for instance) solely because it has 120 sinad rather than 118 sinad? If someone's opinion is that both those dacs are good, I'd say that's a valid opinion. Otoh, if someone's opinion is that a dac having 120 sinad and a dac having 60 sinad are both good, I would consider that an invalid opinion.

 

[Ron Texas]

There really aren't that many important new developments in hardware. Note the word important.

 

[JoetheLion]

absolutely. We are in full agreement wrt SINAD. Can you point me to a thread here where anyone has suggested that somebody needed to buy a dac (for instance) solely because it has 120 sinad rather than 118 sinad?

No.
But I have read posts that have labeled devices as "nonsense devices" just because the measurements were worse than the top ranking measurements. Even though Amir himself said they were "good enough".

 

[DanielT]

I mean...yeah. Obviously. And?

May seem like it. I admit that exaggerated for the sake of agruement.

But let's say 30 watts to increase the whole thing a little, or 40 watts, 50 watts. An amp that handles low loads "fairly". An amp with super duper SINAD. Then you start weighing one thing against the other. The parameter SINAD in the equation then. Or at least I do.

SINAD a good indicator, but taken out of context of amp power, cope with loads what does it give in practice, together with the speakers you have?

SINAD in relation to amp power for a subwoofer amp. How do you weigh SINAD against a lot of power without driving the amp into clipping?

 

[antcollinet]

No.
But I have read posts that have labeled devices as "nonsense devices" just because the measurements were worse than the top ranking measurements. Even though Amir himself said they were "good enough".

I think that comment was referring to it as a nonsense device because for the price you can get more features (as well as performance) elsewhere.

 

[MattHooper]

Because...

JSmith

First thing that came to my mind too.