Why has Audio (and maybe all hobbies) become so hostile?

[gikigill]

You're such a noob. I was able to see it on my $5K TV just as well. Of course, I do have a $3K power cable to go along with it. Obviously, you're just a sucker for quality marketing.

Noob-sauces like you don't even have their own power pole. Go back to your cave, you philistine.

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2016/08/...lling-their-own-power-poles-to-improve-sound/

 

[CDMC]

You're such a noob. I was able to see it on my $5K TV just as well. Of course, I do have a $3K power cable to go along with it. Obviously, you're just a sucker for quality marketing.

I couldn’t see it, then used a $1000 hdmi cable for my $500 tv and could.

 

[jsrtheta]

First, I should start by saying that I am not trying to start some war, but am frustrated/confused by the hostility I see on some forums. I am posting this here, as I believe that there will actually be a thoughtful discussion that won't devolve into a war of insults.

A little about me. I am a 40 something that has been enthralled with audio since I was 10. My dad was a musician who trained in Opera. His entertaining partner a composer who was married to a classical pianist. I spent a lot of time as a child sitting next to a 1912 Chickering concert grand, probably why my litmus test for speakers is how a piano sounds. I am in the middle of the objective/subjective beliefs. I believe that measurements tell us a great deal about how equipment sounds, but also that we have not yet been able to quantify and correlate everything we hear. I also believe that cables can make a minor difference in sound, but not due to any magical properties, but basic differences in LCR (I swear that I hear a difference between Kimber 4VS and Wireworld Helicon 16, with the Helicon being slightly smoother (rolled off) on the top end). I also believe that the listening room and speakers are by far the largest determinate in how a system sounds and 95+ percent of what makes a system sound good is speaker/room matching.

Finally, I try to be honest in my own biases. I believe that most of us have preferences that deviate from a "flat wire with gain". In my case, I am very sensitive to high frequencies (I was close to a loud explosion as a child that left me with permanent tinnitus that is getting worse as I get older). Combine that sensitivity with with my preference for rock, which can vary from well mixed to horrible, and I prefer equipment that is on the warm syrupy side of things, which I know is not the most "accurate" but gives me the most listening pleasure. Give me a pair of speakers with a nice little midbass hump and slightly rolled off high end any day of the week.

Having gotten that out of the way, I constantly watch threads on forums devolve into flat out personal attacks (i.e. this is the best amplifier in the world and if you don't like it you are deaf and stupid). In regard to this forum and Amir, on other forums I saw negative comments (and after looking further, downright nasty and extremely hostile personal attacks) which of course made me come and look here. Ironically what I saw here was a lot more tolerance and intellectual discourse than in many other places (AVS Forums seems to be the other forum where they still stay civil).

I think a lot of what bothers me is time and time again seeing a new person coming in and looking for guidance and three posts later it has devolved into a war not involving the original poster's question that then goes on for another 50-100 posts. This bothers me in large parts as with companies like Massdrop, Schiit (I know there is a less than pleasant history with Amir and Schiit), Emotiva, Tekton, and a myrad of others, there is finally a resurgence in affordable, good audio equipment and an opportunity to grow the audio community with young people instead of a bunch of old guys bitching.

So trying to focus in on what bothers me (and this seems to go beyond just audio groups):

1) What happened to being civil to each other?
2) Why has audio become a personal religion rather than a fun hobby?
3) Why can people not be intellectually honest with themselves (i.e. I know it measures like shit, but I like the way it sounds)?
4) When did people become unable to separate personal preferences from fact?

Again, sorry to the extent I am rambling, but this is something that just constantly sits there in the back of my mind.

Cary

It's been like this for decades, the hostility. I don't find this site to be weighted down with it, at all. But back when rec.audio was a thing, it was Armageddon every day, and that has continued on a lot of forums. I won't name what forums I think are the kind you're referring to. No need. But it's pretty depressing, and it's nothing new.

 

[oldsysop]

That image is a very good argument for subjectivists and sellers of lies. Amir measurements prove that the image does not move, but it is seen to move.

 

[beefkabob]

1) What happened to being civil to each other?

Throughout history, periods of civility are inconsistent. We're in a mediocre period at the moment. Internet anonymity doesn't help.

2) Why has audio become a personal religion rather than a fun hobby?

When people realized they could make more money by selling religion than science.

3) Why can people not be intellectually honest with themselves (i.e. I know it measures like shit, but I like the way it sounds)?

You can say that to yourself, but you're best off getting a nice, clean DAC and amp then EQing in all the things you like. It'll sound exactly how you want it, then.

4) When did people become unable to separate personal preferences from fact?

Since there were people.

Also this site is pretty decent. Nobody wants to piss Amir off and end the gravy train of reviews.

 

[digicidal]

That image is a very good argument for subjectivists and sellers of lies. Amir measurements prove that the image does not move, but it is seen to move.

No worries. I've conducted a double-blind test with that image and another one... not only was I not able to see movement, but I couldn't even tell when my wife swapped the images. So the measurements are still to be trusted. I guess it's good we don't listen with our eyes right?

 

[solderdude]

That is due to your artificial eyes (see your avatar).

don't look at the image on a phone. Use a computer monitor and don't watch it from a large distance.

 

[JoachimStrobel]

In audio we live we an under determined system: Two speaker do not capture a soundstage. CD red book just so gets it right, but painting the CD blue could change the outcome (it does not, but the system is so sensitive that it feels like that). Even I can hear differences between a Toslink and a copper cable feeding into a DAC (copper sounds better). So, yes, all subtle changes in instrumentation changed the sound somehow. And unlike photo/video, where we see the real thing all the time, with audio we seldom have a jazz combo in the living room for x-checks.
This changes with Blu-ray, DSD and multichannel. And while many people can afford expensive stuff for 2 channels, many will hit a limit for 6 channels - a 2 ch DAC for 2k$may sell but a 6 channel for 6k$ not. Two loudspeakers 5k each may just be do-able, but not 5+1. And it is not needed as spreading the burden over 5 channels eases the impact. So this high-end discussion will hopefully loose it’s edge...

 

[gikigill]

No worries. I've conducted a double-blind test with that image and another one... not only was I not able to see movement, but I couldn't even tell when my wife swapped the images. So the measurements are still to be trusted. I guess it's good we don't listen with our eyes right?

Could your wife tell the difference from the kitchen though?

If not, she's due for replacement and this time conduct necessary tests before getting hitched.

 

[Wombat]

Re OP. Probably only applies when attempts are made to make bullshit respectable.

 

[ashleydoormat]

I'd like to add that some people (me included sometimes) are just plain bored in life so we (knowingly/unknowingly) are attracted to drama to some degree. Good old fight club style arguments attract more views and engagements. Boring data and measurements do not, unless the conclusion drives feisty arguments lol. I think some degree of argument is fun but too much especially the personal attack kind will soon spiral out of control. A little respect for another person's choice (whether it's foolish or not in your eyes) in a hobby goes a long way.

 

[BDWoody]

No worries. I've conducted a double-blind test with that image and another one... not only was I not able to see movement, but I couldn't even tell when my wife swapped the images. So the measurements are still to be trusted. I guess it's good we don't listen with our eyes right?

To bring some audio science to this, when I listen to music WHILE looking at the picture, the picture is still but the music clearly moves around. It sounds better to me, so it's clearly superior to everything else.

 

[JeffS7444]

When I used a DB meter to actually match within 1 db, those differences became extremely minor, if they are in fact really differences. Same thing for the Saga on my desktop.

Yup, level matching is key. I think matching within 0.1 dB is considered the gold standard:
Per Stereo Review's Larry Kline, this can be done by ear, because when levels are thus matched, sonic differences disappear!

 

[CDMC]

Yup, level matching is key. I think matching within 0.1 dB is considered the gold standard:
Per Stereo Review's Larry Kline, this can be done by ear, because when levels are thus matched, sonic differences disappear!

I couldn’t get that close, I was using a handheld meter and didn’t want to go through the hassle of pulling out the realeq and running multiple sweeps. It is amazing though how when you are trying to go back and forth adjusting levels with a volume knob to match by ear, how far you can be off. I do think in many cases where people find a passive pre to be lacking dynamics, it is because they haven’t actually matched levels. I know there are cases where it is real (i.e. too high of an output impedance on the source, too low on the input) resulting in significant sound differences.

 

[digicidal]

Could your wife tell the difference from the kitchen though?
If not, she's due for replacement and this time conduct necessary tests before getting hitched.

She was actually upstairs in a back bedroom and hollered "Did you just change something in the office?" as soon as the image loaded. I'm positive she'll be a significant asset when I start up my new subjective review site.

 

[Soniclife]

Nobody wants to piss Amir off and end the gravy train of reviews.

Not read the mqa threads? It's him versus the world in those. That we can forcefully challenge him is a good thing.

 

[BDWoody]

Not read the mqa threads? It's him versus the world in those. That we can forcefully challenge him is a good thing.

Amir's not your typical self proclaimed expert audiophile talking out of his rectum... One doesn't often reach the level of professional achievement he has by being a lightweight... Doesn't mean he's never wrong or can't learn. Iron sharpens iron and all that...

I think he can handle himself...

 

[Cosmik]

Hopefully audio will never reach the levels of hostility now endemic in the knitting world

A woman went rushing up to Sockmatician as he was doing a book signing today and screamed in his face. He asked her to stop, but she carried on. So he called for her to be removed and then one of the organizers of Yarningham came over and started pushing Sockmatician out of the room whilst the first woman screamed at him “Why are you walking away? You’re a hypocrite, stand here and face up to me like a man.” Sockmatician was clearly very distressed. The woman went at him knowing fully well he’d been in hospital. Very unpleasant. Not too impressed by the Yarningham organizer, either. She pushed the wrong person out of the room.

!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ron Texas]

Hobbies aren't angry, it's the behavior of members of mostly male forums. I've seen lots of bad behavior in photo forums. Years ago many forums in a certain activity were unmoderated. That was fun because if someone gave you a hard time, you could tell them where to go.

 

[Wombat]

Hobbies aren't angry, it's the behavior of members of mostly male forums. I've seen lots of bad behavior in photo forums. Years ago many forums in a certain activity were unmoderated. That was fun because if someone gave you a hard time, you could tell them where to go.

And they could do likewise. No rational result.