Why expensive integrated amplifiers better than Topping...?

[retroflex]

There's definitely a whole lot of overpriced garbage audio products being sold. The reasons are varied, but I think a lot of it boils down to the fact that you hear what you want to hear, and what you want to hear is that your new $3000 amplifier sounds better than your old $300 one.

That being said, if we take the LA90 as an example, it's really lacking a whole lot of features that you could get in a similarly priced integrated amplifier, like a remote control, streaming, phono input, and headphone output. Is it worth it to trade those features for extra SINAD that you may or may not be able to hear? Depends on what you're looking for, right? Not saying that you shouldn't buy the LA90, far from it, just that there are things other than performance to consider.

 

[Deleted member 46664]

just that there are things other than performance to consider.

One of the things many people seem not to realize is that most electronics, amps in particular, reached the point of "audible perfection" way back in the 1970s. In a normal room with 30 to 35db of background noise, where listening happens at about 80db... any amplifier or device with a SINAD greater than about 50db will be audibly silent and clean. The raw numbers below about 80db are really just show-off points to land them higher on lists like Amir is keeping. No, it's not wrong to rank and roster these devices... but the over dependence on specs that are so far below audibility doesn't make a whole lot of sense ... especially when features go down and prices go up to get there.

 

[NiagaraPete]

What about engineering cost?

 

[muslhead]

What about engineering cost?

yawn.
Those are sunk costs and amortized over each unit. The more units they sell the more insignificant it becomes

 

[Deleted member 46664]

I was under the impression that the majority of the spec-leaders that have been tested here are low-to-moderate priced merchandise. Yes, there are some expensive pieces, but they're not the majority. Am I wrong about that? Jim

Not wrong ... but it is also true that cheap audio is getting better while better audio is getting cheaper ... Can't wait till they meet.

 

[JWAmerica]

There are a ton of quality amplifiers on the market that will last decades because they are well made. Can Topping or other Chi-Fi brands claim that? No, of course not, because they haven't been in business for that long. We'll see how these cheap amps hold up and if they don't we'll also see where corners were cut.

 

[ta240]

yawn.
Those are sunk costs and amortized over each unit. The more units they sell the more insignificant it becomes

and the more expensive the amplifier is the fewer they sell.

If a product has serious reliability issues, that will usually manifest in amazon reviews as a 1-star rating proportion of greater than 6%. however, if the product is dying after like 2 years that doesn't seem to show up in amazon ratings. I've only seen reviews that refer to something dying up to a year later.

And a 2 year lifespan can make an inexpensive item expensive. Some of those higher end amps will still be running decades from now.
We live in a society that has learned to embrace inexpensive items that aren't expected to last. I really wasn't shocked when the topping DAC I bought heated up and died 6 months after I purchased it. I certainly didn't bother posting a review about it doing that. Although I haven't heard of it with their products, it has been shown over and over that Amazon reviews are often not very reliable. I've been contacted several times about getting big discounts on products in exchange for 5 star reviews. A lot of reviews I read are posted right after the person gets the item; what percentage of those people will go back and add an update a year or more later that the item died?

There are a ton of quality amplifiers on the market that will last decades because they are well made. Can Topping or other Chi-Fi brands claim that? No, of course not, because they haven't been in business for that long. We'll see how these cheap amps hold up and if they don't we'll also see where corners were cut.

I can't imagine 40 or 50 years from now people talking about the used Topping they just picked up.
Sure many of the higher end brands have pricing that exceeds the upgraded materials but they have often been compared to designer watches and plenty of those get priced far higher than their quality would demand. And that doesn't even get into the comparison to non-functional jewelry. I'm also reminded of many of the super car reviews I've seen where the cars squeak and creak and are difficult to drive and shift. Sometimes logic just doesn't apply.

The interesting part here is performance. Raw performance seems to be relatively cheap to archive. I understand paying extra for a quality finish, better looking materials, industrial design and features. What does not make much sense is why all those elements cannot be combined with top performance (I´m looking at you, McIntosh).

I honestly think that there are customers that prefer what isn't considered top technical performance. It may not make any sense to those that frequent this site but there are plenty of things people do that makes no sense to me.

One of the things many people seem not to realize is that most electronics, amps in particular, reached the point of "audible perfection" way back in the 1970s. In a normal room with 30 to 35db of background noise, where listening happens at about 80db... any amplifier or device with a SINAD greater than about 50db will be audibly silent and clean. The raw numbers below about 80db are really just show-off points to land them higher on lists like Amir is keeping. No, it's not wrong to rank and roster these devices... but the over dependence on specs that are so far below audibility doesn't make a whole lot of sense ... especially when features go down and prices go up to get there.

oh the irony of paying for overkill in performance to be able to mock those that pay for overkill in build.

 

[Vacceo]

Coloration, I can understand. That is what speakers and EQ is for, but amps?

 

[ta240]

Coloration, I can understand. That is what speakers and EQ is for, but amps?

I'm not sure why there is such a need to be able to understand the desires of other people when they don't impact anyone else. If they like it, then why worry about it? There are plenty of options for everyone.
I couldn't imagine altering a car in a way that negatively affected its performance just to achieve a look but as long as long as I'm not stuck behind them trying to make it over a speedbump or get rear-ended by a truck whos bumper lines up with my roof then who cares.

 

[restorer-john]

So... as you know Topping la90 came out and in my brain born new question why expensive amplifiers are expensive? For what people are paying so much???Why should I buy mark levinson digital amp for 200000 czk instead of topping combo for about 30000 czk?

Simply because the bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.

And of course, the corollary- the sweetness of high quality remains long after the high price is forgotten.

I get joy from unpacking a 30 or 40 year old amplifier, built to standards they simply don't do anymore, plugging it in and revelling in the fit, finish, feel, performance and 100% bullet proof reliability.

 

[restorer-john]

dealers want their 40 - 50% margin

Maybe back in the day on loudspeakers, but even in the exclusive dealer-only days of the early 90s, 40 points on electronics was not guaranteed.

 

[JiiPee]

Some reasons to pay more for an amplifier besides the sound quality/measurements:
- Higher quality electrical components with longer life span.
- Higher quality mechanical construction.
- Desirable features like more connections, adjustments etc...
- Pleasing design with good looks and usability.
- Brand image.
- Manufactured responsibly paying decent wages and in a country that respects human rights.

 

[DSJR]

Maybe back in the day on loudspeakers, but even in the exclusive dealer-only days of the early 90s, 40 points on electronics was not guaranteed.

I think you'll find it is here now in the surviving dealer chains except for a couple of small companies who work to tight budgets. Speakers especially are now mostly 50 points plus... One quite well known maker of 'systems' gives their larger dealers 50% as long as warranty cards are filled in and targets met.

 

[Selkirks]

Maybe back in the day on loudspeakers, but even in the exclusive dealer-only days of the early 90s, 40 points on electronics was not guaranteed.

I worked in the industry for years (recently) and 40 points or higher was the norm.

 

[Talisman]

There are a ton of quality amplifiers on the market that will last decades because they are well made. Can Topping or other Chi-Fi brands claim that? No, of course not, because they haven't been in business for that long. We'll see how these cheap amps hold up and if they don't we'll also see where corners were cut.

Please don't make it a question of provenance. It has nothing to do with China or the USA or Europe, given that many products with European brands are, for example, produced in China.
It is necessary to critically evaluate what a particular brand or product proposes, stop.
I own a breeze mini dual tpa3116, paid a ridiculous 38 euros (without power supply) that works continuously connected to Alexa and two bookshelf speakers for over two years, never a problem. Surely it will not have stellar measurements, but in all honesty I think I would have a lot of difficulty in recognizing it blind from a pa5. Obviously a single analog input, a single power button and a volume knob, but I repeat 38 euros !!! When going up with the digits I expect a lot more from an amp, I expect a certain amount of power, I expect extra functionality, I expect a remote, I expect ease of use, I expect high build levels, I expect maybe a integrated dac, I expect a sub output, I expect a trigger in / out, I expect a pre-out .....
Performances have not really been a problem for a long time now, and there are tons of well-played products for little money, and I don't understand the drift of continuing to push inaudible values from 50db ago by sacrificing all the really useful features I mentioned above.

 

[restorer-john]

Please don't make it a question of provenance. It has nothing to do with China or the USA or Europe, given that many products with European brands are, for example, produced in China.
It is necessary to critically evaluate what a particular brand or product proposes, stop.

Chinese labour is cheaper, as was Malaysian, Vietnamese and Korean. That's why many of the top Japanese brands moved their operations to those countries one after another. Don't pretend otherwise.

I remember when Yamaha moved their low-end, mid-end audio manufacture from Japan to Malaysia in 1991. The stuff looked the same, but it was unreliable. Whole pallets of gear had to be returned. Then they ironed out the problems and moved more and more manufacture to Malaysia. Sony did the same. They all did.

Cheapest labour does not make for the best gear. I've never had any complaints about Japanese or US manufactured HiFi gear, but plenty of issues with low labour cost countries of origin. When that changes, I'll be the first to admit it.

 

[Talisman]

Chinese labour is cheaper, as was Malaysian, Vietnamese and Korean. That's why many of the top Japanese brands moved their operations to those countries one after another. Don't pretend otherwise.

I remember when Yamaha moved their low-end, mid-end audio manufacture from Japan to Malaysia in 1991. The stuff looked the same, but it was unreliable. Whole pallets of gear had to be returned. Then they ironed out the problems and moved more and more manufacture to Malaysia. Sony did the same. They all did.

Cheapest labour does not make for the best gear. I've never had any complaints about Japanese or US manufactured HiFi gear, but plenty of issues with low labour cost countries of origin. When that changes, I'll be the first to admit it.

Surely this was true in the early years, I doubt that the problem is now the place of production today. Obviously, almost all of them relocate production to countries where labor costs less and workers' rights are much less considered, but if we think that some of the most efficient and engineered technological products such as smartphones (including iPhones) are produced in China and have percentages very low breakages, we can deduce that attributing the problems of Topping / smsl products to the Chinese manufacturing is limiting, and is not the core of the problem, but (if the problems with some products are confirmed) the engineering choices, perhaps extreme and perhaps the poor product testing phase to try to lower costs.

 

[Deleted member 46664]

Cheapest labour does not make for the best gear. I've never had any complaints about Japanese or US manufactured HiFi gear, but plenty of issues with low labour cost countries of origin. When that changes, I'll be the first to admit it.

That's why, whenever I get mini-amps or speakers that were made in China the first thing I do is tear them down, check all the solder points (especially the manual ones), tighten the screws and connectors then power them up at punishment levels for a few minutes.

I've had all kinds of fun ... everything from exploding capacitors to bad chips to counterfeit parts... and not only in the "crap line" level stuff. A good example is the new Topping amps... the PA5 seems like a real service headache... but what do you expect when you put 38 volts on a 36 volt chip. Even the current favourite the Aiyima A07 has it's problems... as I've mentioned elsewhere I recently had problems with a bad IC socket and counterfeit parts... then there's the overheating issue on higher power supply voltages.

But, right now, without spending $10k there really aren't any good alternatives.

Yeah ... when that changes, I'll be the first to celebrate.

 

[Vacceo]

One of the things many people seem not to realize is that most electronics, amps in particular, reached the point of "audible perfection" way back in the 1970s. In a normal room with 30 to 35db of background noise, where listening happens at about 80db... any amplifier or device with a SINAD greater than about 50db will be audibly silent and clean. The raw numbers below about 80db are really just show-off points to land them higher on lists like Amir is keeping. No, it's not wrong to rank and roster these devices... but the over dependence on specs that are so far below audibility doesn't make a whole lot of sense ... especially when features go down and prices go up to get there.

And that is precisely why traditional, expensive manufacturers, should be ashamed that far cheaper products measure far better than them.

 

[restorer-john]

And that is precisely why traditional, expensive manufacturers, should be ashamed that far cheaper products measure far better than them.

Sadly, you are missing the point.