Who do we trust?

[DDF]

What HiFi is such a joke that there is even a parody Tumblr named after them. Just to take one out of many examples, they will even go so far as to tell you that a piece of furniture will make your system "sound taut, bold and full of bite, with plenty of treble". I don't see how anyone could possibly take that website seriously.

I've also noticed suspiciously consistent high praise for British gear. I've found What HiFi to be very unreliable, personally.

 

[Ron Texas]

Here are some things that make a “transparent” speaker:


Let’s compare the SoundStage/NRC measurements of two speakers:

Vivid Audio Giya G2:
* Average sensitivity
* Ruler flat on-axis
* Really good off-axis other than retained energy around 600Hz
* Listening window matches 0-30° graph, so vertical performance is good.
* Very low distortion even at 101dB @ 1m
* Miniscule dynamic compression even at 101dB @ 1m.
* 4ohm below 100Hz and ~45° phase at 100Hz, so it needs a beefy amp.

Martin Logan Motion 4
* Average sensitivity.
* Absolutely horrendous frequency response (on-axis to 30°)
* Poor off-axis, we get dips around 2kHz which weren’t present in the on-axis, thus likely is from using too large of a driver as a midrange.
* Listening window matches 0-30° graph, so vertical performance is good.
* Distortion around 2kHz that is slightly within the audible range, but measurements was done only at 96dB @1m.
* Slight dynamic compression in the treble at 96dB @1m
* Below 5ohm for most of the frequency range.

Comparing speakers which cost $500 a pair to ones which cost 100 times as much doesn't prove anything. It isn't hard to find some much better $500 speakers, and it would be lots of fun to find a really bad pair for $50k.

 

[Ron Texas]

What HiFi is such a joke that there is even a parody Tumblr named after them. Just to take one out of many examples, they will even go so far as to tell you that a piece of furniture will make your system "sound taut, bold and full of bite, with plenty of treble". I don't see how anyone could possibly take that website seriously.

You see crap like that everywhere. "These cables opened everything up." and so on. They probably are biased towards UK built or designed gear although sometimes I think us based publications may be biased towards US built or designed gear.

I have said this above, whatever you see written by a publication or in a forum is just a data point. There is no substitute for listening.

 

[Ron Texas]

Were the speakers themselves the only variable between auditions?

State of mind I believe.

 

[Audiojim]

@Ron Texas Why don't you try the dynaudio core 7? These are active but cheaper than the C20. Why?

 

[andreasmaaan]

Plenty of graphs for psi a17 Here.

I saw that but it doesn’t show much, although what it does show is that the speakers have a classic directivity mismatch between the woofer and tweeter. Not that I’m saying that means they are “bad”, just not a good candidate for a neutral monitor.

 

[SIY]

Here's what a shallow person I am- for 60+ posts and 4 pages in my browser, I've been wincing every time I see the thread title.

 

[Blumlein 88]

What speakers are best then in your opinion?

Well, I've not heard them all. I find Harman's approach convincing.

Let me compare the B&W 805's mentioned earlier to the Revel F228Be's.
B&W graphs first and Revels second. Source in this case is Stereophile.

Frequency response on axis. Pretty clear which is flatter and smoother.

Horizontal response. Note this is normalized to the on axis. So while it doesn't look horrid for the B&W, off axis it is very up and down as the on axis response is. Plus you see significant off axis wrinkles on top of that. The Revel is smoother and this normalized to an already smoother on axis response.

Vertical off axis response. B&W is much less smooth and even with some lobing.

I would expect the Revel to be the better speaker for most residential purposes.

I use less expensive Revel's in my video system up front and some JBL (Harman) designed LSRs for surround. I also use some LSR305's for monitors when I do recording or mixing. The LSR's are almost too good to be true for the price.

In full disclosure I also have some Soundlab ESL's I use. They do have a sound of their own. Would I exchange those for some of the upscale Revels? If I were doing this from scratch I might well do that.

If one was shopping in more expensive territory, and wanted an all in one system, they might look at the Kii Audio Three or the Dutch&Dutch 8 speaker systems. They appear to have some stellar measurements. They'll run like $12 or $13k, but this is everything you need other than a digital source.

 

[amirm]

Yes so there's another example. Who's correct? what hifi are not novices they are experienced and have access to ultra high end gear. Should we completely dismiss their views?

You should. There is science to how you evaluate audio gear. They are ignoring it. Hence their conclusions are completely faulty.

Would you trust some popular site online that prescribed medication without following medical science? You should treat these review sites the same.

What they are skilled in is publishing words. Not proper evaluation of audio.

 

[MZKM]

Comparing speakers which cost $500 a pair to ones which cost 100 times as much doesn't prove anything. It isn't hard to find some much better $500 speakers, and it would be lots of fun to find a really bad pair for $50k.

Right, but I’m just illustrating what a good speaker performs like. Also, those Martin Logan’s are $1000/pair, not $500 (I forgot to add the 0 after 4, so the Motion 40). And going off the RP-600M measurements, the Klipsch RP-6000F would be an arguably better sounding speaker for the same price.

 

[Ron Texas]

@Ron Texas Why don't you try the dynaudio core 7? These are active but cheaper than the C20. Why?

Funny that a guy who does not like active monitors is recommending them. They may cost less but but they are still $4k per pair and the Contour 20 has a better finish. Besides, there is nowhere to audition them. You make me laugh.

 

[Ron Texas]

Right, but I’m just illustrating what a good speaker performs like. Also, those Martin Logan’s are $1000/pair, not $500 (I forgot to add the 0 after 4, so the Motion 40). And going off the RP-600M measurements, the Klipsch RP-6000F would be an arguably better sounding speaker for the same price.

Humor me, find something for $50k that measures horrendously.

 

[Ron Texas]

Well, I've not heard them all. I find Harman's approach convincing.

Let me compare the B&W 805's mentioned earlier to the Revel F228Be's.
B&W graphs first and Revels second. Source in this case is Stereophile.

I would expect the Revel to be the better speaker for most residential purposes.

Dollar for dollar, I would take a Revel over a B&W every day. It surprises me that B&W was able to score the best distribution deal in the USA with it's products everywhere in Magnolia. Must be the HF peak sounds great in the showroom.

 

[MSNWatch]

Humor me, find something for $50k that measures horrendously.

Wilson Maxx 3

 

[SIY]

Acapella (ok, it's $80k, not $50k).

edit: I don't remember the name of the huge and expensive speakers that were being shown at AXPONA last year in the same room as Atmasphere, but I guarantee their measurements would be even worse. I was touring the show with my doctor (who is an avid audiophile) and buttonholed him into visiting that room and taking a listen. His first reaction: "Is this on purpose?"

 

[Blumlein 88]

Humor me, find something for $50k that measures horrendously.

Do we count tax? How about $49,995. And it gets class B ranking from Stereophile. Hahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.stereophile.com/content/auditorium-23-hommage-cinema-loudspeaker

The reviewer, AD, found it to be the most thoroughly competent modern high efficiency design he had in his home. Thought it class A. JA did say it seemed better for class B for an "old fashioned sounding speaker" which he couldn't live with due to lack of a top end (nothing over 9 khz).
JA also advised, "you should give this speaker a listen, just to experience what's possible from a classic compression driver loaded with a horn." I'm figuring a K-horn might be better and cost a lot less though I've not seen measurements of a K-horn.

With that ranking and those of Zu speakers, is there is any credibility left for subjective review methodology?

 

[SIY]

OK, Blumlein wins.

 

[FrantzM]

Do we count tax? How about $49,995. And it gets class B ranking from Stereophile. Hahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.stereophile.com/content/auditorium-23-hommage-cinema-loudspeaker

The reviewer, AD, found it to be the most thoroughly competent modern high efficiency design he had in his home. Thought it class A. JA did say it seemed better for class B for an "old fashioned sounding speaker" which he couldn't live with due to lack of a top end (nothing over 9 khz).
JA also advised, "you should give this speaker a listen, just to experience what's possible from a classic compression driver loaded with a horn." I'm figuring a K-horn might be better and cost a lot less though I've not seen measurements of a K-horn.

With that ranking and those of Zu speakers, is there is any credibility left for subjective review methodology?

View attachment 25959

View attachment 25958

Really!!!

 

[FrantzM]

OK, Blumlein wins.

+1

 

[Ron Texas]

@Blumlein 88 kind of amazing they make stuff like that and that enough people buy it for them to stay in business. There are great alternatives from JBL.