Who do we trust?

[RayDunzl]

I've heard several studio monitors that are designed to be very flat. But they still didn't sound alike.

Were the speakers themselves the only variable between auditions?

 

[Blumlein 88]

which is why we need forums like this rather than links, for experts to explain.

Well you can learn things this way for sure. As you see plenty are willing to help. But it will take some time and patience. If a couple posts on a forum could give you full understanding of such a complex subject, ............then it isn't really complex.

As to who to trust, subjective reviewers are all over the place. Some people react to this by picking a reviewer or two who seem to like the same things. Likely that just makes them feel better.

Others who do more measurements may not always agree, but they end up in the same general area of what is good. I'd say those are more trustworthy for their consistency at least. If you wish to understand it for yourself, then you'll have to acquire a little more knowledge. And I think that is a very good thing. It just isn't quick or easy.

Also, knowledge about measurements takes time, and effort to reach a level of understanding that is useful. Subjective reviewers have to write fairly well, and just start listening and writing. Even if they do it for a long time they may never have deepened any understanding of those speakers they audition. Pure wide experience isn't useless, but it pales in comparison to experience combined with knowledge of how something works.

 

[Willem]

As for speakers, there is flat and flat. No speaker measures remotely as flat is an amplifier, let alone a DAC. To be inaudible, deviations should be within +/- 0.2 dB and that is quite simply impossible for speakers. So, even if they are relatively flat by speaker standards (and that is indeed important), there are still important audible differences.

 

[Audiojim]

Were the speakers themselves the only variable between auditions?

yes. They were switched immediately and placed side by side

 

[Audiojim]

Well you can learn things this way for sure. As you see plenty are willing to help. But it will take some time and patience. If a couple posts on a forum could give you full understanding of such a complex subject, ............then it isn't really complex.

As to who to trust, subjective reviewers are all over the place. Some people react to this by picking a reviewer or two who seem to like the same things. Likely that just makes them feel better.

Others who do more measurements may not always agree, but they end up in the same general area of what is good. I'd say those are more trustworthy for their consistency at least. If you wish to understand it for yourself, then you'll have to acquire a little more knowledge. And I think that is a very good thing. It just isn't quick or easy.

Also, knowledge about measurements takes time, and effort to reach a level of understanding that is useful. Subjective reviewers have to write fairly well, and just start listening and writing. Even if they do it for a long time they may never have deepened any understanding of those speakers they audition. Pure wide experience isn't useless, but it pales in comparison to experience combined with knowledge of how something works.

What speakers are best then in your opinion?

 

[Ron Texas]

A man told his son to climb up on a brick wall. He then held out his arms and told the boy to jump. He allowed the boy to fall to the ground. Then, he said, your first lesson in life is never trust anyone.

Reviews and reviewers differ. What Hi-fi gave the celebrated Kii III's a 4 star review. In their parlance is it wasn't worth the price. I used to think when there were a large number of positive reviews it meant the product was reliably good. The Schiit Yaggi shattered that belief.

I have LS50's, a speaker known for many great reviews. It does a lot of things right. If they are not pointing straight ahead they will sound harsh and on some tracks they sound harsh anyway, even with a BBC dip eq'ed in, although I am not sure those tracks count as music.

Anything you see in print or in a forum, including measurements, is guidance, but no substitute for listening, especially when it comes to speakers.

 

[Ron Texas]

What speakers are best then in your opinion?

The ones sitting right in front of you. If they don't sound right, take a walk, have a glass of wine and put on some different music.

 

[Audiojim]

Reviews and reviewers differ. What Hi-fi gave the celebrated Kii III's a 4 star review. In their parlance is it wasn't worth the price.

Yes so there's another example. Who's correct? what hifi are not novices they are experienced and have access to ultra high end gear. Should we completely dismiss their views?

I used to think when there were a large number of positive reviews it meant the product was reliably good. The Schiit Yaggi shattered that belief.

How?

I have LS50's, a speaker known for many great reviews. It does a lot of things right.

Are you listening with a subwoofer? What makes the KEF blade which is many times the cost, better apart from the bass obviously?

 

[sergeauckland]

Yes so there's another example. Who's correct? what hifi are not novices they are experienced and have access to ultra high end gear. Should we completely dismiss their views?

Yes, totally dismiss them as reliable. They are a magazine, totally dependent on advertising for their survival, and with zero credibility for technical competence.

S

 

[SIY]

Yes so there's another example. Who's correct? what hifi are not novices they are experienced and have access to ultra high end gear. Should we completely dismiss their views?

Don't know them specifically, but if they're anything like the US hifi magazines, yes, they should be dismissed. Stereophile has some good, if incomplete measurements, and those are always worth looking at.

The best speaker reviews I've ever seen were in the old Audio magazine, done by Dick Heyser. I've tried to emulate them as best I can, but I would never claim that my reviews were as good as his. But... I'm starting to incorporate some new methods into speaker reviewing which, as they develop over the next year or so, I surely hope will be useful and interesting.

 

[Audiojim]

But... I'm starting to incorporate some new methods into speaker reviewing which, as they develop over the next year or so, I surely hope will be useful and interesting

The kii audio measure well but whathifi were not impressed. If measurements don't correlate to audible results it's pointless.

 

[SIY]

The kii audio measure well but whathifi were not impressed. If measurements don't correlate to audible results it's pointless.

Non sequitur there.

And if you read through @Floyd Toole 's research (and his superb book), you'll find that measurements and audible results correlate quite strongly.

 

[pierre]

I can't find published measurements for either of these speakers, do you have any links?

Plenty of graphs for psi a17 Here.

 

[SIY]

Plenty of graphs for psi a17 Here.

But missing key ones like off-axis (horizontal and vertical) response.

 

[Ron Texas]

@Audiojim I wouldn't completely dismiss anything. They are just data points, YMMV.
The Schiit Yaggi measures very poorly. It's been reviewed here and has issues that I will not elaborate.
I have subwoofer. It makes a huge difference. I also could not get it set up right until I bought a calibrated microphone and made measurements with REW. We love measurements here. I can only conjecture about the blade. In it the coaxial mid/tweeter crosses over to the LF units at around 370 hz. It has a different, tighter surround than the unit in the LS50. In theory, that should reduce distortion. Dynamic range is considerably better.

If someone gave me $25k right now I would not buy a pair of speakers in that price range. A month in Japan for 2 would be first up. After that, perhaps Dynaudio Contour 20's, but I have to listen to them again in Austin. Keep the balance for something else.

I don't know what you are seeking, but it might help if we knew your associated equipment, room characteristics, musical preferences and general location.

 

[Shadrach]

If you're a music lover you will probably spend more time listening attentively to your loudspeakers than you would your wife.
Would you choose your wife from a magazine or a few forum posts?
All the electronics can be done by measurement but your speakers, well they're personal.

 

[pierre]

But missing key ones like off-axis (horizontal and vertical) response.

You are right. They show them for this One but not for others.

 

[edechamps]

what hifi are not novices they are experienced and have access to ultra high end gear. Should we completely dismiss their views?

What HiFi is such a joke that there is even a parody Tumblr named after them. Just to take one out of many examples, they will even go so far as to tell you that a piece of furniture will make your system "sound taut, bold and full of bite, with plenty of treble". I don't see how anyone could possibly take that website seriously.

 

[daftcombo]

What HiFi is such a joke that there is even a parody Tumblr named after them. Just to take one out of many examples, they will even go so far as to tell you that a piece of furniture will make your system "sound taut, bold and full of bite, with plenty of treble". I don't see how anyone could possibly take that website seriously.

Cannot believe what I just read. I was searching for 'April 1st" to be written somewhere but no, "August 19".

 

[MZKM]

Here are some things that make a “transparent” speaker:

* Ruler flat on-axis.
* Off-axis that is near identical to the on-axis, usually losing output the further off-aids you go.
* Low distortion.
* Fast and even decay.
* No dynamic compression (frequency response is still at max output).

You also of course want a speaker that is easy to power as well as high sensitivity.

Let’s compare the SoundStage/NRC measurements of two speakers:

Vivid Audio Giya G2:
* Average sensitivity
* Ruler flat on-axis
* Really good off-axis other than retained energy around 600Hz
* Listening window matches 0-30° graph, so vertical performance is good.
* Very low distortion even at 101dB @ 1m
* Miniscule dynamic compression even at 101dB @ 1m.
* 4ohm below 100Hz and ~45° phase at 100Hz, so it needs a beefy amp.

Martin Logan Motion 40
* Average sensitivity.
* Absolutely horrendous frequency response (on-axis to 30°)
* Poor off-axis, we get dips around 2kHz which weren’t present in the on-axis, thus likely is from using too large of a driver as a midrange.
* Listening window matches 0-30° graph, so vertical performance is good.
* Distortion around 2kHz that is slightly within the audible range, but measurements was done only at 96dB @1m.
* Slight dynamic compression in the treble at 96dB @1m
* Below 5ohm for most of the frequency range.