Who do we trust?

[Audiojim]

There are sometimes conflicting reviews of speakers by the reviewers.

For example whthifi gives this three stars but hifichoice gives a positive review and recommendation.

https://www.whathifi.com/monitor-audio/studio/review
https://www.hifichoicemag.com/content/monitor-audio-studio

Another example is Technics SBC700. These got a low two stars out of five by whathifi. Whathifi said this

• Lack of detail resolution and dynamic punch
• Lean tonal balance, cluttered and compressed soundstaging
• Poor rhythmic drive

Stereophile gave the Technics a great review and even compared against LS50 which were extolled by whathifi. They said:

The SB-C700 was more dynamic, with more slam and startle factor, and was lighter on its feet. The Technics went lower and presented a wider spectrum of bass detail than the KEF, as well as more clean air between singers and their mikes.

they have a new, 21st-century sound that is evenly balanced

Obviously these are diametrically opposed opinions. Who do we trust?

B&w and Wilson Audio are more examples. B&W get very good reviews by the media but many audiophiles say they are poor sounding. I've seen bad reviews of the Wilson duettes too.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Not who, but what (measurements)

 

[Audiojim]

Doug Schneider said:

I found Wilson Audio's Duette to have a really screwy tonal balance despite its price tag of nearly $15,000/pair (with stands), and is something that shows up quite readily in our measurements of it. Its bass performance is also quite pathetic despite having a woofer that measures more than 8" across. All told, it seems you have to tweak the Duette to death in order to get it to sound half-decent in a typical room

 

[Audiojim]

Not who, but what (measurements)

What measurements can show that one speaker is better than another? They all look the same to me. You can't tell from frequency response measurements whether it's a Magico, B&W or budget speaker.

 

[SIY]

Two things I never trust:

1. Reviewers- ironic, coming from me, but true. "Reviewers" extol the sonic virtues of silver wire, special rocks, LED "noise harvesters," and all kinds of goofy things. So I'm supposed to believe them about loudspeakers?

2. "Many audiophiles"- ditto, and multiplied by a thousand.

 

[Purité Audio]

What measurements can show that one speaker is better than another? They all look the same to me. You can't tell from frequency response measurements whether it's a Magico, B&W or budget speaker.

Measurements can give you a good idea of the speaker, the more measurements the better, FR , on and off axis, bass extension, impedance curve, phase, Stereophile often explains what the measurements mean.
Keith

 

[SIY]

What measurements can show that one speaker is better than another? They all look the same to me. You can't tell from frequency response measurements whether it's a Magico, B&W or budget speaker.

Frequency response, polar pattern, complex impedance plots, distortion, SPL capability vs frequency... They may not tell you that you'll like A better than B, but they'll tell you if A or B have significant design flaws which will exclude them from serious consideration if you're looking for something relatively uncolored and (aggggh, can of worms opening!) natural sounding. For example, I have a pair of budget speakers set up right now that aren't as good as my main ones, but they sound surprisingly close above the lowest bass octave and at under 95 dB. My measurements tell me that and, unsurprisingly, so do my ears.

 

[andreasmaaan]

What measurements can show that one speaker is better than another? They all look the same to me. You can't tell from frequency response measurements whether it's a Magico, B&W or budget speaker.

Take for example the measurements of the Duette you just posted. There are major problems in the bass and midrange:

We have the a deep, wide dip around 200Hz and a peak at around 700Hz slowly rolling off from there on up. There's no way this speaker is going to sound right.

That would be the only measurement necessary to know that this is a poor speaker.

I agree that good speakers often measure similarly, e.g. some Magicos and some B&Ws. But the measurements can still show important differences, even if these aren't obvious from just the on-axis frequency response.

Perhaps you could suggest two speakers that seem to measure similarly for a comparison?

What I do agree with you on though, is that often the measurements are not thorough enough to draw a strong conclusion, and are therefore better used to rule poor-performing speakers out, rather than to make a final decision. This is simply because there is no single publication that publishes thorough enough measurements to give a detailed enough picture.

Generally though, if both Stereophile and the NRC (Soundstage!) have measured the same speaker, there is enough between the two sets of measurements to gain a very good picture of how the speaker will sound.

 

[Audiojim]

I have a pair of budget speakers set up right now that aren't as good as my main ones, but they sound surprisingly close above the lowest bass octave and at under 95 dB. My measurements tell me that and, unsurprisingly, so do my ears.

What are they?

 

[SIY]

What are they?

Watch the pages of AudioXpress.

 

[Audiojim]

We have the a deep, wide dip around 200Hz and a peak at around 700Hz slowly rolling off from there on up. There's no way this speaker is going to sound right.

But the peak is only a few db. Is that what you claim is the problem?

 

[BillG]

For example whthifi gives this three stars but hifichoice gives a positive review and recommendation.

What Hi-Fi is a solidly commercial site that deals in subjectivity. You'll probably notice that they also firmly favor British brands.

That being said, I only ever access them for product announcements, and pretty pictures, and I ignore whatever they may have to write about specific products.

 

[andreasmaaan]

But the peak is only a few db. Is that what you claim is the problem?

The dip at 200Hz is -6dB or -7dB relative to the peak at 700Hz. That's a major problem, yeh

 

[Audiojim]

And how would you get a dip at 200hz? Where is it coming from?

 

[Audiojim]

I've heard several studio monitors that are designed to be very flat. But they still didn't sound alike.

 

[SIY]

The dip at 200Hz is -6dB or -7dB relative to the peak at 700Hz. That's a major problem, yeh

I'd wonder about the polar response glitch in the treble as well. Is there a crossover near that point? Or some diffraction issue? If I saw that in my measurements, I'd poke around a bit more.

Vertical dispersion is often waved off, but it's quite critical as well. I just submitted a review of the Kali LP-6s that really nailed that aspect beautifully, but it's a big miss with a lot of other speakers.

 

[SIY]

And how would you get a dip at 200hz? Where is it coming from?

If that was measured anechoically and the speaker is meant for placement near a boundary, that "problem" actually isn't a problem. I'd want to see a against-a-wall measurement in such a case.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Vertical dispersion is often waved off, but it's quite critical as well. I just submitted a review of the Kali LP-6s that really nailed that aspect beautifully, but it's a big miss with a lot of other speakers.

I completely agree, and in fact vertical dispersion was exactly what I had in mind when I said that Soundstage! measurements alone are insufficient to get a near-complete picture of a loudspeaker's performance.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I've heard several studio monitors that are designed to be very flat. But they still didn't sound alike.

Perhaps you could post the measurements of at least two of these monitors that we could compare and discuss?

 

[Audiojim]

Barefoot Mm35 gen 2 and Psi A17m.