What's the point of floorstanding when we have subwoofers?

[Duke]

15"? Pfft! see below

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A 15" woofer with 11 mm of linear excursion will move more air. That big Fostex woofer has a very short x-max.

 

[levimax]

I have 4 subs in a fairly small space and there are parts when playing the CD pictured below that they still choke on (or maybe the room can't handle it as the drywall starts banging against the studs but in any case it does not sound good or like music). The recording has high output down to 17 Hz or so. Trying to get high SPL below 25 Hz is hard and below 20 Hz you really have to fight for every Hz. Fletcher-Munson is working against you every step of the way. 90 SPL @ 20 Hz does not even sound "loud" although it does shake everything in the room and is kind of fun as long as no one else is home to complain.

 

[kyuu]

I have 4 subs in a fairly small space and there are parts when playing the CD pictured below that they still choke on (or maybe the room can't handle it as the drywall starts banging against the studs but in any case it does not sound good or like music). The recording has high output down to 17 Hz or so. Trying to get high SPL below 25 Hz is hard and below 20 Hz you really have to fight for every Hz. Fletcher-Munson is working against you every step of the way. 90 SPL @ 20 Hz does not even sound "loud" although it does shake everything in the room and is kind of fun as long as no one else is home to complain.

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Yeah, if the goal of your audio system is to play back pipe organ recordings faithfully at high SPLs in your home you're probably going to have a hard time on multiple fronts.

 

[MattHooper]

I have 4 subs in a fairly small space and there are parts when playing the CD pictured below that they still choke on (or maybe the room can't handle it as the drywall starts banging against the studs but in any case it does not sound good or like music). The recording has high output down to 17 Hz or so. Trying to get high SPL below 25 Hz is hard and below 20 Hz you really have to fight for every Hz. Fletcher-Munson is working against you every step of the way. 90 SPL @ 20 Hz does not even sound "loud" although it does shake everything in the room and is kind of fun as long as no one else is home to complain.

View attachment 437320

I think you just need the right vehicle, and take it on the road, play those tracks and let them know who’s boss:

 

[DonH56]

The frequency a piano string can generate is a function of tension and mass as well as length, so a 27 Hz fundamental can fit in an 8' piano, or even a smaller upright.

Percussive sounds from the hammers and beat frequencies can generate signals well below the fundamentals of the strings.

 

[kyuu]

The frequency a piano string can generate is a function of tension and mass as well as length, so a 27 Hz fundamental can fit in an 8' piano, or even a smaller upright.

Sure, but when mass is used to get the lower frequencies rather than length, as it is in smaller pianos, you get very strong overtones that often overwhelm the fundamental. This is why small pianos, and particularly small uprights, have bass notes that sound "muddy" or even almost like more of a "thud".

Percussive sounds from the hammers and beat frequencies can generate signals well below the fundamentals of the strings.

Based on my experience using digital pianos, I don't think that's terribly significant. Even if that is captured in the sampling/modeling, it's unlikely the little speaker systems in them are reproducing any tones under 27.5Hz very well. Yet the bass on a good digital piano is much more pleasing than on any smaller upright or baby grand. IMO, of course.

 

[DonH56]

Sure, but when mass is used to get the lower frequencies rather than length, as it is in smaller pianos, you get very strong overtones that often overwhelm the fundamental. This is why small pianos, and particularly small uprights, have bass notes that sound "muddy" or even almost like more of a "thud".

True, but the low-frequency percussive sounds from hammer strikes are still there.

Based on my experience using digital pianos, I don't think that's terribly significant. Even if that is captured in the sampling/modeling, it's unlikely the little speaker systems in them are reproducing any tones under 27.5Hz very well. Yet the bass on a good digital piano is much more pleasing than on any smaller upright or baby grand. IMO, of course.

I was not in any way shape or form talking about digital pianos. My wife plays piano and organ, so we have a grand piano in the house, as well as several digital keyboards (and a small'ish digital organ). I'll take the old analog grand, as will she, but playing the digital keyboards through a good sound system they are very good. I did not expect you to take what I said and apply it to a digital keyboard with "little speaker systems". Not sure how you made that leap, but admit I did not rule it out, as I did not even consider it. When I said "piano" I meant a conventional piano with strings and hammers connected to the keyboard.

I have no dog in this hunt; I have large floor standing speakers and subwoofers, and have said why, so at this point further debate is obviously meaningless.

 

[kyuu]

I was not in any way shape or form talking about digital pianos. My wife plays piano and organ, so we have a grand piano in the house, as well as several digital keyboards (and a small'ish digital organ). I'll take the old analog grand, as will she, but playing the digital keyboards through a good sound system they are very good. I did not expect you to take what I said and apply it to a digital keyboard with "little speaker systems". Not sure how you made that leap, but admit I did not rule it out, as I did not even consider it. When I said "piano" I meant a conventional piano with strings and hammers connected to the keyboard.

I think you've misunderstood me. I know you meant a "real" piano with strings and hammers. What I was trying to say is that I don't think those percussive noises from the hammer and beat frequencies that go under the fundamental tone are significant to the tone of a piano, based on the fact that I doubt digital pianos reproduce those well, if at all, yet still sound good (particularly so in the bass register compared to small pianos). I certainly don't intend to say that digitals are "better" than a "real" piano, however.

I've become a bit curious about how much the juice of the last 10-20Hz in the bass is worth the squeeze recently, so apologies if my musings on this subject read somehow as an attack on you in any way. You're one of the most valuable contributors around here, so I'd rather shut up than cause you any grief.

 

[valerianf]

Just giving my two settings:
Computer: small bookshelf speakers+subwoofer (class D amp without any DSP correction) .
Perfect for You Tube contends and gaming.
Main room: large tower speakers without any subwoofer (class AB amp with DSP correction).
Perfect for HD music and movies.

What is important is having the right equipment for the intended task and the available room.

 

[Taiga]

Comment to consider from our host:

This is why you buy a high-performance tower speaker folks instead of bookshelf. Same amount of floor space but far better handling of music at elevated levels.

KEF R11 Meta Tower Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests, EQ and detailed measurements of the KEF R11 Meta floorstanding speaker. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $3250 each. The R11 Meta is gorgeous looking with high gloss finish and cabinet that has been shrunk as much as possible to basically hug the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[thewas]

From acoustic point of view it is usually more expedient to place the subwoofers in different (and ideally more than 2) positions than the loudspeakers, now if the second are floorstanding or not does not necessarily say if they are enough regarding the desired max SPL and bass depth, in the worst case their low bass section can be used as an additional pair of subwoofers but the implementation of such is not trivial at all.

 

[dedobot]

Even a companies like MEG are confused about this topic :

basis 14k sub manual:
"Using big main speakers
For large main speakers, the BASIS11K, BASIS13K or BASIS14K should be used exclusively for thesubwoofer channel (LFE). The connection of the individual speakers to the subwoofer is therefore not advisable, as an additional bass reproduction, in addition to the large main speakers, serves no purpose'

RL801k (full range/large speaker) manual:
"Bass extension
The speaker enables the connection to a subwoofer from the BASIS series. Use the output connector at the amplifier to utilize this option. By the bass extension an acoustical power enhancement in the lower frequency range is achieved and results in an even sound propagation especially in acoustically less damped rooms."

 

[Trdat]

I do prefer main speakers with fairly deep bass and always have. Crossovers are not brick walls so a fair amount of energy still comes from the mains an octave below the crossover frequency. Higher-order crossovers allow you to reduce the overlap, but I still like having the capability. I have never really understood the idea of running "passive" bi-amping as implemented by an AVR (sending full-range signals to multiple channels and letting the speaker's crossovers separate frequency bands -- wastes amplifier headroom and seems to me of little benefit). Nor do I agree with the "plus" setting putting subs and mains in parallel; again, my idea has always been to isolate the two for the reasons above.

For all the reasons you have stated I have 4 subs with my booskshelf speakers and dual subs with my second system which is a horn and has a 15 inch for the midrange.

However, I am a fan of the massive overlap in the crossover region between subs and midrange. Not sure how we measure or check out in REW but my bookshelf speakers play till its closed box 8inch driver and is set to full range in the the AVR with the crossover taken care of in the AVR which was configured with REW to figure out delay. But with my triamp I admit the massive overlap yielded some preringing and average step response but even when i got it right I still went with an overlap that played the 15inch down till about 60hz and the sub up till about 100hz and I love the bass.

Point is at least in my amateur opinion for subs a brick wall crossover isn't necessary or at least can be tweaked depending on the tools at hand.

 

[levimax]

I've become a bit curious about how much the juice of the last 10-20Hz in the bass is worth the squeeze recently,

From a practical point of view it is absolutely not worth it. I have 4 subs and two are crossed low (40 Hz). As an experiment I turn off the mains and the other 2 subs to see what is actually playing down low. For most music at normal listening levels they don't do anything audible. At loud listening levels and some content (like EDM or Pipe organs or select pop titles) they do go to work but for the amount of work they are doing the benefit is often quite subtle especially because of the way the brain processes LF and the harmonics. For the amount of expense and added hardware and the potential for aggravating the neighbors the last 10-20 Hz costs / benefits makes no rational sense.

On the other hand since this is a hobby, in some cases for some people the last 10-20 Hz can be fun to chase. Unlike rolling op-amps or new cables or cable lifters or even dare I say chasing SINAD, which make no audible difference, there is recorded content down low on some recordings that if accurately reproduced can be heard and felt which can be satisfying and fun.

 

[Waxx]

I had a diy ported sub that went to 23Hz F3, but i did not like it and rebuild it to a 32hz F3 sealed config (with a slow slope down) and it's a lot better (even without dsp). I do listen to bass heavy music (modern Steppers dub, organ music, ...) also, but the lower volume in the 20's and 10hz is actually better in the room, I do use (manual) room correction for that setup altough, and that made a big difference. The sub is not a full sub, it's working to 300Hz where it's crossed (with dsp now) and is part of the total speaker.

The multisub approach works well if you tune it well with dsp. I did that for others, but in my setup i did not do it, also because my space is small and crowded with stuff and i don't have space to put another subwoofer there.

 

[thunderchicken]

I use an RSL 12” with bookshelf speakers and have had a tough time finding products with real bass management for integration. I use the onboard crossover for now, which works pretty well.

The end goal is still semi-active floorstanders with Hypex DSP for the lower octaves and XLR out for stereo subwoofers. That removes any need for bass management at the preamp or subwoofer level.

As to arguments that bookshelf speakers use less power, it’s not true as a general rule. They are often way less efficient.

 

[kolestonin]

In the same way we can ask: what's the point of pickup tracks when we have trailers?

I am not playing the smart guy here. I love subwoofers and I always had subwoofers with my bookshelf speakers.
But when I bought my first towers it is not only that I was not missing anything in the bass region, but that everything was sounding better without subs.
Of course I have no dsp equipment and REW is very complicated for me. And no matter I sold my subs, I still believe that if I could properly integrate them they would have been beneficial even for my towers. Eventually subtly, but still beneficial. For most people who do not have the skills, the time or the interest to take the root of proper integration though, I think leaving the whole job to a well designed tower speaker is a very good choice.

 

[DonH56]

I think you've misunderstood me. I know you meant a "real" piano with strings and hammers. What I was trying to say is that I don't think those percussive noises from the hammer and beat frequencies that go under the fundamental tone are significant to the tone of a piano, based on the fact that I doubt digital pianos reproduce those well, if at all, yet still sound good (particularly so in the bass register compared to small pianos). I certainly don't intend to say that digitals are "better" than a "real" piano, however.

I do not think the percussives influence the "tone" per se, but do contribute to the overall sound that distinguishes a piano from say an organ that has much "softer" attacks" with almost no percussive waves. The beat tones do contribute to sound, but I was writing of those in the context of massed/multiple instruments and singers performing together, not piano (multiple strings are used to "spread" the frequency of each note a bit and those can produce beat tones but I was not thinking of that). When playing with a group, listening for/feeling LF beats are one way we stay in tune (we hope!)

Interestingly, years ago I was measuring the signals from some new digital pianos using sampled waveforms, and they did include very low frequency content in their samples.

I've become a bit curious about how much the juice of the last 10-20Hz in the bass is worth the squeeze recently,

If I follow, for acoustic music perhaps not a lot, but it is nice to have and hear when it is there. Electronic music tends to have higher deep bass content, as well as movies (of course). Orchestra pieces that use a lot of percussion, bands with drums, etc. sound better to me with a good set of subs. I am not sure where you stick the "last 10-20 Hz"; if below 20 Hz, it is pretty subtle to me for most music, but is a big part of a lot of action movies. Note my system is for HT as well as music. My system is -3 dB at about 7 Hz in-room but I was not trying for that, it just happened from the way I set up the subs in a modest room.

so apologies if my musings on this subject read somehow as an attack on you in any way. You're one of the most valuable contributors around here, so I'd rather shut up than cause you any grief.

I was (very) confused about the leap to digital pianos, sorry. Appreciate the kind words.

 

[kyuu]

Interestingly, years ago I was measuring the signals from some new digital pianos using sampled waveforms, and they did include very low frequency content in their samples.

That's good to know, actually.

If I follow, for acoustic music perhaps not a lot, but it is nice to have and hear when it is there. Electronic music tends to have higher deep bass content, as well as movies (of course). Orchestra pieces that use a lot of percussion, bands with drums, etc. sound better to me with a good set of subs. I am not sure where you stick the "last 10-20 Hz"; if below 20 Hz, it is pretty subtle to me for most music, but is a big part of a lot of action movies.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. The last 10-20Hz I was referring to is the 10-30Hz range. Most particularly the 20-30Hz area, as that seems to be the area that many consider a "must have" for a "true" subwoofer.

 

[DonH56]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. The last 10-20Hz I was referring to is the 10-30Hz range. Most particularly the 20-30Hz area, as that seems to be the area that many consider a "must have" for a "true" subwoofer.

Not something I have studied, sorry (audio was not my day job), though I tend to think the 20 Hz cut off for audio was made for a reason. The deep "wump" from drum strikes and so forth has content to 20 Hz and below, but I have had subs "forever" and have not done any recent study. Be interesting to tweak the LF roll-off from maybe 50 Hz down to 10 Hz and see what happens to the sound. I know 50 Hz is too high a cutoff, at least IME, but when it gets down to 30 Hz and below I don't have any personal data. (When I had speakers limited to ~50 Hz, I missed the deep bass, but designed a servo sub that extended the response to 16 Hz so jumped right to <20 Hz.) Sounds like a project for a Master's student. @j_j might know, or @Floyd Toole though I don't think he is online much these days.