What's the point of floorstanding when we have subwoofers?

[Oddball]

Sorry was typo in my previous post - was shooting too fast . For main channels as others noted peak is 105dB and 115dB for subs when play LFE.

Obviously very loud so probably best to tune it down a notch. I usually listen at -10dB to reference, but that really depends on source as some are louder than the others.

The point remains, really difficult to get 20hz at 105dB with some acceptable level of distortion (say 5% or so) from any tower. Amir measured Revel 328 at 96dB and it shows only 3% at 30hz. But that would really shoot up for another 10dB and 10hz down, and anyway the speaker drops 20dB from 30 to 20hz, so would not be really able to pull that off anyway.

 

[bmc0]

I have a subwoofer on the HT system, but I live in a home, not a movie theater, and 115 dB SPL (what weighting?—it matters) might knock glassware off the shelves.

Unweighted. Keep in mind that the LFE channel is intended for low-frequency effects (i.e. explosions and such), hence the extra headroom.

My "serious" system is music only (no screen) so I can't comment from personal experience, but most reports I've seen from home theater people with calibrated levels indicate that full cinema reference level is generally too loud. It seems not uncommon to set the volume as much as 10dB below reference.

 

[EJ3]

I have a subwoofer on the HT system, but I live in a home, not a movie theater, and 115 dB SPL (what weighting?—it matters) might knock glassware off the shelves.

And it would get me divorced. And probably arrested if it didn’t live in the country.

I use my floor-standers for music, and not music that is defined by bass. I am a tuba player, so I think I know what acoustic bass sounds like. Good floor-standers can do bass that isn’t purposely made boomy by amplification (like it is for a lot of amplified music in live venues). I have also carted around and mixed Altec A7’s (aka Voice of the Theater) for live bands, so I know what sounds like, too.

Use cases are the basis for requirements, and have to be understood and stipulated along with the requirements.

I just bought a Dayton sub to augment a pair of Canton bookshelf speakers for the playback system on my electronics test bench. It was necessary, to be sure. But I kept turning it down (and the crossover up) until I could no longer hear it as its own source—only then did the music sound acoustic and not amplified. No, I didn’t measure it—I had five minutes to devote to it and just needed basic acceptability.

Rick “subs shouldn’t be conspicuous in the sound—that’s not why they are there” Denney

No one says that you have to run at 115 db SPL, you can run less by turning it down.
On the other hand, I might want more for my application. Perhaps I want to hear it outside, or on my dock or downstairs (or any other damn reason that I please).
If YOU don't want to have that capability, no one is forcing you to have it.
But others may have a use for it.

 

[JRR]

Hi there!

(Let's preface this by saying that, as some of you may have seen, I'm currently asking a lot of questions about audio on the forum ; I want to be sure I understand everything before spending actual money on serious gear)

From what I understand, the main benefit or floorstanding speakers over bookshelf speakers is the low-end part of the spectrum. For instance, if we take KEF's R3 Meta vs R11 Meta, or Monitor's Audio Gold 50/100 vs 200/300/500, or Mofi's Sourcepoint 8 vs 888, the main point of having bigger speakers seems to be the bass.

But subwoofers can achieve even deeper bass, especially thanks to huge drivers, and as someone pointed out in another thread, they can be positioned freely in the room to find the best position in order to avoid having too much problems with the room's acoustics.

Also, if we take KEF's example, the R3 Meta sell for 2200 €. The R11 Meta, on the other hand, are 6500 €. 3 times as expensive ! They are of course way bigger, with bigger woofers, but they seem to work in a similar fashion. Same goes for Monitor Audio : the Gold 50 are 2000 €, the Gold 500 are 6500 €. More than 3 times the price.

For way less than that price difference, you can get yourself a really high-end subwoofer, or two high-quality subwoofers to place wherever you want.

So, my question is:

Why do floorstanding exist when we can just use bookshelves with (one or two) subwoofers?

Especially given:

* Subwoofers can go lower
* Bookshelves + subwoofer = cheaper
* You need way less power for bookshelves

Some of the reasons I can think of are:

* Subwoofers take some additional place in addition to the speakers themselves
* You need an amp with one or even two (that's a lot less common) subwoofers output
* Floorstanding may be nicer-looking to some people
* Floorstanding don't require a stand (and custom stands are often ridiculously expensive)
* Some people may not want to have super deep bass if they live in appartment

But even with these, it seems like the vast majority of people should prefer bookshelves over floorstandings.

Any idea on that subject?

“Bookshelf” speakers are near pointless. For serious listening you need the speakers to sit on stands. Better to extend same cabinet to the floor and plop another driver in for a 2.5 way speaker for nearly the same cost. Heck, for diy, the stand often exceeds the cost of the second bass driver. The floor stander takes up no more real estate. Finally you will have more flexibility in integrating your sub with lower extension.

 

[rdenney]

No one says that you have to run at 115 db SPL, you can run less by turning it down.
On the other hand, I might want more for my application. Perhaps I want to hear it outside, or on my dock or downstairs (or any other damn reason that I please).
If YOU don't want to have that capability, no one is forcing you to have it.
But others may have a use for it.

If I wanted the LFE channel at cinematic loudness, then that takes what it takes.

Question: Is the 115 dB SPL at one meter or the listening position?

My Revels were measured at the NRCC at 100 dB, at least for linearity. But that was anechoic at two meters, so it’s the equivalent of 106 dB at one meter for one speaker, which would be 109 dB if the signal is present in both channels. But certainly not at 20 Hz. I think that would very possibly knock pictures off walks or art glass of display shelves, and I’m not kidding about that. And if it was that loud inside so that it would be loud outside, I think I’d be hearing window panes instead of speakers.

But that’s the thing with use cases. It explains why it’s not my use case, not why it can’t or shouldn’t be someone else’s.

Rick “can’t argue with use cases” Denney

 

[EJ3]

If I wanted the LFE channel at cinematic loudness, then that takes what it takes.

Question: Is the 115 dB SPL at one meter or the listening position?

My Revels were measured at the NRCC at 100 dB, at least for linearity. But that was anechoic at two meters, so it’s the equivalent of 106 dB at one meter for one speaker, which would be 109 dB if the signal is present in both channels. But certainly not at 20 Hz. I think that would very possibly knock pictures off walks or art glass of display shelves, and I’m not kidding about that. And if it was that loud inside so that it would be loud outside, I think I’d be hearing window panes instead of speakers.

But that’s the thing with use cases. It explains why it’s not my use case, not why it can’t or shouldn’t be someone else’s.

Rick “can’t argue with use cases” Denney

I have no idea who originally said something about 115 db SPL.
Since it was already in play, I used it.
I'm pretty sure that I have had a room only up to 112 db SPL.
One doesn't want to show off too much power, it attracts the wrong kind of people to your home when you are not there. And then you come home to things that are missing.
That was with my speakers mounted in my upstairs windows, angled downwards, blasting at the neighbors 1 story house, who had their living room console stereo loud enough (with their windows open, that I could here it in my downstairs workshop with the doors & windows closed.
I put on music that I knew was offensive to them (me, too, actually) and went downstairs & (I was not staying in that room with it that loud) waited for the phone to ring. It did not take long.
They asked me if I would Please turn my music down. I said: "When you turn your distortion down so that I do not hear it in my workshop, I will be happy to turn mine down so that mine does not come into your yard,
A truce was established that lasted over 30 years (when they moved to a different state.)
As to a listening position, I do not have one. It's wherever I feel like being in or around my home.
Also, I don't have an LFE channel, as I am either running 2.2 or 4.2. The homebuilt subs FR is 20Hz-80Hz. (+- what, I have no idea). They can handle 1500+ watts RMS (dual 4 Ohm voice coils) each, I can put a little over 1K RMS into each one (the circuit being rigged to be a 4 Ohm load for each sub.)
The mains are +-2 db 26Hz-20KHz without any EQ.
Of course, I can no longer hear over 14K, so...

 

[rdenney]

Heh. Reminds me of college, when my roommate and I found ourselves living next to an unofficial frat house (all frats were unofficial at Texas A&M in those days). Their partying was getting a little excessive, and the fifth night in a row we'd had enough. We carted a couple of A7's onto the porch roof and played Ride of the Valkyries through a Phase Linear amp. I'll bet peaks hit 120 dB, but I'm not promising there was no distortion. Escalation ensued. Truce was ultimately obtained, but there was also some involvement from the local constabulary, called in by civilians who found themselves in the line of fire.

Rick "don't miss those days" Denney

 

[Westsounds]

They don't need stands

 

[Cypherdelic]

Well because stereo-music simply sounds alot better when you dont have to use a sub or if you use a sub than as an "extra" to extend those frontspeakers-bass, if it is not yet strong enough
Or when you simply want your LFE-subwoofer for cinema not to take crossovers, for that you need good fronts with bassdrivers or another sub dedicated for the front.

It also depends on the room if frontspeakers work better than a well placed Sub... Usually not, so 2.1 satellite plus sub is not that bad at all... But front-standspeakers can be greater.

You can find ultra expensive ones from nubert etc... They sell good for a reason


Dont forget, that a stereosignal features stereo bass (it can be different L/R, its possible) and a subwoofer is just mono presenting both L and R the same time. It does matter for a lot of reasons, its a difference. It can be great, but a subwoofer might be better if frontstandspeakers dont work with the room and the positions you wanna place them.

Ever heard a record of real bassdrum moving from left to right? Its not the same with the sub. Frontspeakers are better, you hear the bass goes from left to right too... But not with the sub so much.

 

[Sokel]

SPL feeling also depends of music style and recording.

Yesterday's tribute to Ozzy (Diary of a Madman) at flush-mounted active ATC 150 to the point it was loud (and I mean loud) enough for everyone at 4 m distance:

Great difference from classical for example where the 110dB (Z) SPL peaks are a norm for 85dB (C) average without this LOUD feeling.

Edit: that's the electrical response of R channel only (so some difference can be reasonable), at about the same level for comparison, I was curious to see:




Pretty close I guess.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Dont forget, that a stereosignal features stereo bass (it can be different L/R, its possible) and a subwoofer is just mono presenting both L and R the same time. It does matter for a lot of reasons, its a difference. It can be great, but a subwoofer might be better if frontstandspeakers dont work with the room and the positions you wanna place them.

Ever heard a record of real bassdrum moving from left to right? Its not the same with the sub. Frontspeakers are better, you hear the bass goes from left to right too... But not with the sub so much.

You can have stereo subs as well, though.

 

[Flaesh]

Plain 2way domestic loudspeaker. The corresponding subwoofers are needed below, say, 80-100 Hz.

 

[Ropeburn]

View attachment 466205
Plain 2way domestic loudspeaker. The corresponding subwoofers are needed below, say, 80-100 Hz.

Ah yes, the good old times, when 15" speakers needed subwoofers.

 

[Flaesh]

From some advertisement for sale.

 

[krabapple]

I'm partial to floorstanders, for the main room anyways... On a practical level, in regards to smaller speakers, unless you plan to put them on a shelf or on top of a pair of subs, you then have to buy and stress over about getting the perfect stands to get them to the right height, which then will take up the same floor space as a floor standing speaker anyways... As well, if you have dogs, cats or kids in the house, will you worry about them being knocked over... Might as well skip all that, and yet another purchase, and get speakers that go all the way to the floor.... in my opinion of course...

Adjustable-height stands do exist, you know.

And nonfloorstanders speakers are simply more portable. And typically cheaper to build an identical-surround system with.

 

[jhaider]

Says a retailer who literally makes a crust flogging gear.
Objective, impartial, unconflicted much?

Whatever pecuniary interest you believe Keith derives from encouraging use of subs aside, he's correct on the merits.

Neophytes focus on extension and SPL. More seasoned users focus (and have the tools as well as the experience to address) imaging, response smoothness, and consistency through the room.

Subs allow greater freedom in placement of the mains, because you don't, within reason, care what mains placement does to the bass. So you're not compromising between imaging and bass smoothness or output in your speaker placement - you do them independently. Also, because subs generally have more bass headroom than mains, you can apply more bass EQ to target remaining problematic peaks and minimize nulls without squelching dynamics.

Subs, when used in multiples, also provide for enhanced bass evenness throughout the room. That enhances realism. One doesn't want to walk through peaks and nulls when music's playing and you get up from your seat. That just reinforces the artificial nature of the reproduction.

“subs shouldn’t be conspicuous in the sound—that’s not why they are there”

IME that is true, but so is the converse: cut the subs off suddenly and set the mains unmanaged, and
(a) the apparent size of the rendered performance shrinks, while
(b) the quality of the bass markedly declines, especially as one moves around the room.

 

[EJ3]

You can have stereo subs as well, though.

Or, while not as good as stereo subs: both of my subs have dual 4 ohm voice coils.
One sub can reproduce a stereo bass signal.

 

[EJ3]

Whatever pecuniary interest you believe Keith derives from encouraging use of subs aside, he's correct on the merits.

Neophytes focus on extension and SPL. More seasoned users focus (and have the tools as well as the experience to address) imaging, response smoothness, and consistency through the room.

Subs allow greater freedom in placement of the mains, because you don't, within reason, care what mains placement does to the bass. So you're not compromising between imaging and bass smoothness or output in your speaker placement - you do them independently. Also, because subs generally have more bass headroom than mains, you can apply more bass EQ to target remaining problematic peaks and minimize nulls without squelching dynamics.

Subs, when used in multiples, also provide for enhanced bass evenness throughout the room. That enhances realism. One doesn't want to walk through peaks and nulls when music's playing and you get up from your seat. That just reinforces the artificial nature of the reproduction.



IME that is true, but so is the converse: cut the subs off suddenly and set the mains unmanaged, and
(a) the apparent size of the rendered performance shrinks, while
(b) the quality of the bass markedly declines, especially as one moves around the room.

So, what is wrong with having both floor stander's that go deep, along subs that go deep.
Placement options...

 

[levimax]

Or, while not as good as stereo subs: both of my subs have dual 4 ohm voice coils.
One sub can reproduce a stereo bass signal.

So you hook up the right sub channel to one voice coil and left sub channel to the other voice coil of the same driver? Does that really create "stereo bass" or just another way to "sum to mono"? It seems like it could cause some issues.... what happens to out of phase content?

 

[jhaider]

So, what is wrong with having both floor stander's that go deep, along subs that go deep.
Placement options...

I'm curious where you read anything in my post suggesting anything "wrong" with that.