What's the point of floorstanding when we have subwoofers?

[terryforsythe]

I feel like this should have been solved a long time ago.

but find these even better. Heard them recently and they are seriously tempting me to forget sanity and budgets.

By "recently" do must mean after you posted the first statement. Otherwise, I am confused since the Kii THREE BXT appear solve the issue for you.

 

[Oddball]

By "recently" do must mean after you posted the first statement. Otherwise, I am confused since the Kii THREE BXT appear solve the issue for you.

Unfortunately not really. Would need 8 of them (or at least 4 with 4 bookshelves) which exceeds my budget in multiples. But then would still be short of horizontal center that they don't do.

 

[EJ3]

At what SPL and distance do you listen?

High & far away...

 

[terryforsythe]

which exceeds my budget in multiples.

There is a tradeoff. I'd like to setup a pair of KEF Blades in my game room, but I'm not willing to part with that much money to do so.

 

[terryforsythe]

High & far away...

For that home audio speakers probably are not the best option. Get professional speakers and some of these:

 

[Anton S]

The majority of floorstanding loudspeakers will still need an additional sub/s if you want really full-range.
Keith

This is generally very true. The main advantage of floorstanders over bookshelf/sub systems lies not in the extended bottom end, although most floorstanders do reach down lower than most bookshelf models. The main advantage of floorstanders is that they can usually pump out more sound power into listening spaces with lower distortion, courtesy of more and/or larger drivers. This is important in larger spaces. As a secondary benefit, crossover frequencies to the subs can generally be much lower than for bookshelf speakers, reducing the possibility of bass localization.

 

[Oddball]

At what SPL and distance do you listen?

Usually -10dB master, but have "treat" days when I pump it up to +5dB for limited time (hearing loss limits). Don't have many "stupid" days but they did happen in the past - full volume.

Also, not really running standard bass management, so generally prefer towers that can do relatively high SPL (say 100dB) at relatively low distortion (call it 7%, but mostly lower). This would be at 30-50hz depending on their position.

 

[terryforsythe]

Usually -10dB master

Master volume? To get SPL from that we need to know the gain of your pre-amp (e.g., unbalanced or balanced) and gain of your amplifier, the efficiency of your speakers and how far away they are from your listening position.

Easier, just download a SPL measuring app to your phone and measure it.

Needless to say, it probably is pretty loud and perhaps professional speakers are a better suit for your needs. You still will need subwoofers.

 

[Oddball]

Master volume? To get SPL from that we need to know the gain of your pre-amp (e.g., unbalanced or balanced) and gain of your amplifier, the efficiency of your speakers and how far away they are from your listening position.

Easier, just download a SPL measuring app to your phone and measure it.

Needless to say, it probably is pretty loud and perhaps professional speakers are a better suit for your needs. You still will need subwoofers.

Well, gets even more complicated that that (e.g. dynamic expansion or whatever it is called with Audy). But I am OK - speakers I have are good with the noise I ask from them distortion is in check.

The active ones would really do a better job but perhaps some time in the future where stock market is to rebound instead of sink .

 

[MattHooper]

FWIW: I was just talking to my buddy who had the latest B&W flagship 801s at his place - 801 D4 Signature - which he absolutely loved.

He’s been doing an experiment to see how close he can come to that sound using B&Ws top of the line stand mount - 805 D4 Signature - and two B&W subs.

He tells me he thinks he’s getting about 95% of the sound of the big speakers with that combo. He finds the bass a bit better with the sub/sat combo, more even, though not quite the ease and transparency in the mids, but really close.

 

[Oddball]

FWIW: I was just talking to my buddy who had the latest B&W flagship 801s at his place - 801 D4 Signature - which he absolutely loved.

He’s been doing an experiment to see how close he can come to that sound using B&Ws top of the line stand mount - 805 D4 Signature - and two B&W subs.

He tells me he thinks he’s getting about 95% of the sound of the big speakers with that combo. He finds the bass a bit better with the sub/sat combo, more even, though not quite the ease and transparency in the mids, but really close.

His impressions are not really a benchmark. There are so many factors in between that we don’t know that this is anecdotal at best.

Perhaps he just can’t set set things right or has forgotten to check one of many boxes along the way? Any insight as to the bass management or room correction that might at least be helpful to understand the outcome?

 

[Sokel]

His impressions are not really a benchmark. There are so many factors in between that we don’t know that this is anecdotal at best.

Perhaps he just can’t set set things right or has forgotten to check one of many boxes along the way? Any insight as to the bass management or room correction that might at least be helpful to understand the outcome?

That would also need room dimensions, positioning and the rest of the chaos.
I thought we have been past that, not out of disinterest but by its own sheer chaos of multiplying a million factors.

 

[MattHooper]

His impressions are not really a benchmark. There are so many factors in between that we don’t know that this is anecdotal at best.

Perhaps he just can’t set set things right or has forgotten to check one of many boxes along the way? Any insight as to the bass management or room correction that might at least be helpful to understand the outcome?

Hence FWIW.

Not supposed to be definitive or terribly informative. Just me passing on an anecdotal report.

I’m sure he will give the details on this when he writes about it for soundstage.

 

[Oddball]

Hence FWIW.

Not supposed to be definitive or terribly informative. Just me passing on an anecdotal report.

I’m sure he will give the details on this when he writes about it for soundstage.

Without getting into further detailed discussion, the experiment will be as good as scenarios employed and also the preferred curve.

It is often noted that big towers do better with SPL so would be interesting how far were the bookshelves pushed. 105dB at 80hz would be right number, at least for HT and it’s always interesting to see the distortion numbers at that range (albeit rare but at least we have 98dB from some of the better reviewers). And that would be a flat curve which is generally not too exciting.

BTW not really into B&W anyway, so just some general comments as to tower vs bookshelf. For that money I would go Kii all the way, or other select active speakers.

 

[Vovgan]

Okay, since y’all been waiting to read my experience with integrating subs, here it is:

(MAJOR UPDATE below the line)

1) for STEREO content I could not integrate subs without causing some problems in playback (UPDATE: see below, I did it and it sounds AWESOME). And I tried it over the years. THAT SAID, when crossed over, the dual SVS PB2000 pro subs to either side of the main Revel f208 speakers create a much larger and smoother and more pleasant deep bass, which I really hate to give up, and because of that I sometimes change my speakers to “small” and crossover when I am in a mood for synth tracks and such, but:

2) many new music is in DOLBY ATMOS on both Apple and Amazon, and these tracks sound FANTASTIC with subs (no crossing over, just 0.1 LFE track for subs), compared to how they sound when Denon AVR is programmed to direct all bass to large mains (no subs). And FOR THAT it is still worthwhile to try to integrate your subs so that they are in phase with the main speakers and blend in as well as you can make them to, which will also benefit you in:

3) movies.

If you have struggled integrating your sub(s) with mains and found a good practical solution - let us know what exactly did you do!

——————————


Over the last week I achieved more progress in aligning my subs with my mains (and rear surrounds) than I had in the previous five years.

And I’ve tried everything: Audyssey MultEQ-X with custom PEQ filters, REW with a UMIK-1, different crossover frequencies, different phase settings… you name it.

But this week I did two major things:

1) I inverted the polarity of my subs from positive to negative in the SVS app.

Turns out this is not the same as applying a 180° phase shift. (If in doubt, ask AI why.) My Revel F208 speakers and subs were aligned in positive polarity when running full-range, but not when crossed over. Again, ask AI why a crossover often introduces an effective 180° shift (roughly +90° on the speakers and –90° on the subs). After inverting polarity, the sound improved A LOT.

2) I plugged the ports on my Revel speakers when crossing them over to the subwoofers. This also made the sound noticeably cleaner. I “lost” around 2 dB of bass between 50 and 140 Hz according to REW, but AI says that I am “not "losing" 2 dB of bass. You are successfully removing 2 dB of resonant, slow, boomy port bloat”. Like I said it definitely sounds cleaner and I am not hearing any less bass after plugging the f208 speaker ports when they are crossed with subs @60Hz.

I cannot begin to describe how much the overall sound improved. The bass is super tight - more massive but never overbearing. Just pure joy. (Of course, I still used PEQ on individual speakers, but I had done that before too.)

P.S. Audyssey cannot and thus will not flip subwoofers polarity for you even if needed, so that was the reason I was stuck. But AI says that Dirac Live Bass Control (DLBC) does this, and “it's the entire reason DLBC is a "magic" technology”. Or you can save a few hundred bucks and do it (at least try if you haven’t) like I did: manually.

(It’s kind of bewildering now that I see the effect to think that after so many years and so many millions of AVRs sold Denon have not incorporated this simple test for subs polarity in their auto calibration - which way subs play better with main speakers - and will rather do insane things like putting crazy distances to subs to try to compensate for polarity, and as an effect will create more problems and solve none)

 

[sigbergaudio]

FWIW: I was just talking to my buddy who had the latest B&W flagship 801s at his place - 801 D4 Signature - which he absolutely loved.

He’s been doing an experiment to see how close he can come to that sound using B&Ws top of the line stand mount - 805 D4 Signature - and two B&W subs.

He tells me he thinks he’s getting about 95% of the sound of the big speakers with that combo. He finds the bass a bit better with the sub/sat combo, more even, though not quite the ease and transparency in the mids, but really close.

I have a friend with B&W 800 D3, he still has four Paradigm Persona subs as well (6x8" in each subwoofer).

 

[My adventures in stereo]

Late to this thread
I use 3 SVS PB 2000 Pro with a mini DSP SHD, eq'ed & DSP'ed
The plan was to use it with bookshelf speakers
I tried a few Revel M16 > M106 > M126Be
Also Focal 906; Dyn audio Focal 140
Mofi Source point 8
The Mofi Source point 8 gave the best bass integration with the subs

I had previously used a variety of towers
Klipsch RP 8000; B&W CM9
these would not integrate well with subs & did not produce a pleasing bass response in my room

Currently using B&W 802 S2 towers
These really integrate well with the subs & produce a very pleasing bass response integrated with the subs
As stand alone speakers, I find them lacking in the lowest octave

 

[kolestonin]

So you say that with B&W 802 S2 you achieved even better sub integration than with the Mofi's?
And which speakers sounded better without subs?
Also, integration is becoming more challenging as you add subwoofers? or the opposite?

 

[My adventures in stereo]

The Mofi sp8's produce more bass than the 802 s2, as standalone speakers in my room
Once the subs are dialled in for the room the paired speaker, are far easier to integrate

 

[EJ3]

It has been solved.

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Even my small KEF LS60 speakers are full range. Out of the box they extend down to 26Hz, but they are flat down to 20Hz in my room with the help of CamillaDSP.

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The first 2 are hugely hard to look at in the average home (& mine is way less than average) & greatly defy the idea that they should "disappear" in the room with their imposing looks.
The last ones are a bit better in the aesthetics.
The Blades are much more acceptable in all qualities (not pretty but acceptable) but, again: money.
My Priorities (yours may be different): living on the water, away from cities, having multiple places to live with different climates, having vehicles that I like or can do what I need (pull a place to live while overlanding & be fun to drive [not the same vehicle]) and a host of other things come first.
I don't care how good they sound, they won't be in my home.
Perhaps if I was a billionaire and had a dedicated place for a stereo (& could hide them with them still being 100% functional sound wise).
But then, my priorities would likely be different.
I accept donations... to help me step up to being a billionaire...
Nope, I'm generally happy with what I worked for & do have & generally enjoy it.
Having more, creates it's own set of issues that might make me less happy.