Bass in LFE vs Individual Channels

[Oddball]

One has options to control most of those variables.


The DL-ART that I use is still in beta.

I guess they are closing the beta now as D&M is going in to implement it? The beta sticker was a reason why D&M would not go all in. I would say that what you have now is what it will be. For better or worse. Any more specific comments would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I guess they are closing the beta now as D&M is going in to implement it?

Not directly relevant to me as I am using the Windows-based one on my PCserver. AFAIK, that's still beta.

Any more specific comments would be greatly appreciated.

I wrote about a much earlier beta and about using it in a Storm Audio HT processor but no measurements/tests. If you have any specific questions about fundamental issues, I'd try to answer.

 

[Oddball]

I think you were tagged in the other posts dealing with the same topic.

 

[Chrispy]

Not the point of the discussion but here are my settings for my 5.1:

L+R : Full Range (towers 38hz min)
Center 60hz (small center inside a BDI cabinet)
Surrounds : 80hz (bookshelves)

Audyssey always recommends all speakers to Full Range for past 20 years with 6 AVRs (Audyssey MultEq and XT32) but I reduce it manually for dialogue clarity on the center and to give more power to the mains.

LFE: LFE+Mains I might have set that manually - maybe I should check it off.

I have a different set up for 2 channel playback: 40hz and LFE+Mains

FWIW it isn't Audyssey that is recommending the large setting, that's the avr manufacturer's choice. Audyssey has long said to set speakers to small when using a sub.

 

[techsamurai]

FWIW it isn't Audyssey that is recommending the large setting, that's the avr manufacturer's choice. Audyssey has long said to set speakers to small when using a sub.

Why are they not on the same page? That's Marantz and Denon which are the only avr manufacturers using Audyssey right now since Onkyo switched to Dirac.

 

[Chrispy]

Why are they not on the same page? That's Marantz and Denon which are the only avr manufacturers using Audyssey right now since Onkyo switched to Dirac.

Been that way for a long time. I suppose an avr manufacturer doesn't want to tell you your speakers are "small". The setting for L/R Bypass is also from the avr manufacturer rather than Audyssey themselves. Chris Kyriakakis, chief Audyssey guy, has mentioned as such over time in the Ask Audyssey Q&A pages.

Audyssey has also long had the ability to handle multiple subs, but doesn't mean an avr manufacturer has invested in the processing to provide such....the latest Denon/Marantz units with 4 sub capability have finally done that, tho.

 

[Chrispy]

In any case, simply following the avr's recommendation for full range vs using a crossover isn't necessarily important.

 

[Andysu]

seems that LFE.1 signal can trickle up above 120Hz , i monitored , region 2 dvd , revenge of the sith , some of the lightsaber/force effects and saw it nearing 150Hz but the signal appeared weaker level bit i really not that bothered ,
stormaudio isp32 mk3 subwoofer output was set highest level 200Hz L-R-12dB
the Dolby CP500 i think subwooefer can be set at 250Hz
i think the denon avr 8500h subwoofer can also be set at 250Hz ? thou its not in use as processor anymore only serves for laserdisc video and Dolby Stereo zone output to the Dolby CP200 and CP750

most here and most don't have a five screen speakers L Lc C Rc R set-up that can use the Lc Rc for subwoofer or duplicating star wars 1977

what occurred to me the other night , i can add the LFE.1 to L R and use my back-up five screen matrix and it would divert the LFE.1 mono sub to Lc Rc , just a theory for now as i not actually tested to see also what the cross-talk would be like , it would also normally carry any half panned sounds that are usually between L-C and C-R , otherwise i usually do it another way

 

[bigjohns97]

I have always messed around with setting my fronts to full and then choose LFE+Main as a way to get fuller sound from my Klipsch RF-8k-ii L/R and have found that even when matching the crossover comparison with the standard LFE / 80hz crossover using 2-channel music I still get more bass with just the LFE setting than the LFE+Main.

I am guessing this is some sort of a phase mis-match between the Klipsch and the SVS subs but have no way to verify this.

 

[10PSPMemSticksForMiku2007]

Within the digital file LFE is just another channel and like the other channels it could contain anything. It's ultimately up to the author. How this channel is used is up to your equipment and DSP. It's entirely possible you have each channel mapped to a single speaker with no bass management. This is what you get if you play movies on Windows with simple analog or PCM output and no DSP. In the typical case with an AVR the bass below the crossover frequency you select can be redirected into the subwoofer output. But really there's no limit to what kind of DSP you want to do. In my setup I have my main speakers playing LFE information above 50hz, and the subwoofers play LFE + content from all main speakers below 50hz. This results in better localization and bass quality for me at the expense of being harder on the mains.

Not true. Sometimes LFE can be sent to mains, particularly with a few new avrs/pre-pros from what I've seen. Can even be adjusted as to how much. Not something I'd particularly look for as important otoh.

I have a Yamaha AVR from 2009 that can optionally send LFE to sub only, mains+sub or main only. At least on some brands this has been common a long time.

 

[Andysu]

lfe.1 doesn't earthquake , sensurrounnd sound the same when i , something else missing with it and i have tried a few trail and error ideas

 

[Laika2]

So how does the editor decide how to put the bass in an explosion, say on the right channel?

Obviously, they will need to put bass in the Right channel. Do they put the put the full range of the explosion on the right channel and then add a certain range to the LFE. e.g 20-40hz?

Explosions cover a wide frequency range, if your sub is set at 80 which I is non directional the mains run above 80 and contain the part of the explosion that is direction. It's the combination of the two.
You can spot this with far off but prominent thunder in a movie or outside, that's normally really low and non directional close your eyes and you can't point at the source (unless it has content above 80)

 

[Andysu]

Dolby cat 160 obe , baby boom , in the Dolby Stereo CP200 laserdisc theatrical mix , explosions raiders of the lost ark ( letterbox ) Dolby Stereo feels like an air buster with JBL , lucasfilm ltd THX sound system

 

[Adis]

seems that LFE.1 signal can trickle up above 120Hz , i monitored , region 2 dvd , revenge of the sith , some of the lightsaber/force effects and saw it nearing 150Hz but the signal appeared weaker level bit i really not that bothered ,
stormaudio isp32 mk3 subwoofer output was set highest level 200Hz L-R-12dB
the Dolby CP500 i think subwooefer can be set at 250Hz
i think the denon avr 8500h subwoofer can also be set at 250Hz ? thou its not in use as processor anymore only serves for laserdisc video and Dolby Stereo zone output to the Dolby CP200 and CP750

most here and most don't have a five screen speakers L Lc C Rc R set-up that can use the Lc Rc for subwoofer or duplicating star wars 1977

what occurred to me the other night , i can add the LFE.1 to L R and use my back-up five screen matrix and it would divert the LFE.1 mono sub to Lc Rc , just a theory for now as i not actually tested to see also what the cross-talk would be like , it would also normally carry any half panned sounds that are usually between L-C and C-R , otherwise i usually do it another way

IIRC, War of he worlds (2005) Blu-Ray (not 4K UHD) has LFE channel without any filtering - on some scenes.

 

[Chrispy]

I have a Yamaha AVR from 2009 that can optionally send LFE to sub only, mains+sub or main only. At least on some brands this has been common a long time.

You sure it sends LFE to mains? What model?

 

[10PSPMemSticksForMiku2007]

You sure it sends LFE to mains? What model?

RX-V565. Here's the manual. Check page 39-40. It seems I misremembered how it works, and it only outputs LFE to left+right if you do not use a subwoofer.

 

[Cypherdelic]

RX-V565. Here's the manual. Check page 39-40. It seems I misremembered how it works, and it only outputs LFE to left+right if you do not use a subwoofer.

i guess this requires the frontspeakers to be set to full.
Not sure what the Yamaha does with the LFE when they are set to ie 50hz.
Maybe in that case the LFE is send to the Fronts and only lower 50hz is lost...
But maybe the Yamaha refuses to send LFE to the fronts completely if those are not set to "full".... This is what i would do, haha.
No way... I dont send the LFE to these small boxes, i dont wanna destroy them.

Be aware, that if you set it to full, while they are not capable, this puts them at high danger, since the LFE can contain very low frequencies that easily can kill small bassdrivers in frontspeakers.

Theres a "thunder" demo for Atmos. I mean its not only about how low fronts can go down, but at which energy... 115db @ 35hz requires a lot of energy to produce and that could easily kill a frontspeaker that should be able to play hat frequencies... Ya, but not at that volume the LFE wanna output it, while the rest is not that loud.

Most AVR have a feature to reduce the LFE by -10db or more. That might be useful in that case.

That Atmos Thunder demo easily makes my subsoofers clip led light up.... I dont wanna send this to the mains and i cant imagine mains to be capable of that... Ok some Focals may be capable oft that... But i dont have the room and the money for those... Who has? Oligarchs maybe.

Its a seperated channel, so i wanna seperated device, made just for that purpose, so my mains can present other bass signals the same time, if they are in the signal.
This increases dynamic range and reduced distortions through interferences.


You definetly find movies that feature bass signals in multiple channels... Ie fronts play music with musicbass and/or gunshots, and the LFE send whatever impact, explosion, rumble, earthquake,...its often different audio-information for the lowfrequencies of fronts and LFE. So it might be a good idea to have those signals on a dedicated device for quality reasons and it might be a bad idea to put all those load only to the fronts. This requires really powerful mains. Most people simply dont have those.

Theres ie small Speakers that can play down to 40hz... But if you check what power they can take... Ie 60 or 80 Watts only.. well.. You cant expect it to present the LFE but only to die trying.

So if i were that yamaha i would do that only if you set it to full. And if it is not real capable of that in terms of taking that energy, sry, pity you.

 

[Cypherdelic]

On the other hand, you could try setting 40hz-Frontspeakers to "full" while you have a dedicated subwoofer for the LFE.
This sends no lowfrequencies from the Fronts to the Sub.
And no LFE is send to the Fronts.
This means dedication for both, so no mixing up signals into each other.

Still this puts the fronts at danger when there is subsonic-bass in the Frontsignal, so be aware of that... Some music contains those, altough it is extremely rare.

No risk no fun

 

[Cypherdelic]

Using frontspeakers for the LFE not only requires them beeing absolutely capable of that but also requires a powerful AVR-Amplifyier and you might consider at least to choose BiAmp to protect your tweeters from those loads THD-distortions and have max. channel power solely to the bassdrivers of the fronspeakers available. If the frontspeakers are capable, but the AVR is not (in terms of powerdelivery on frontchannel) and youre also not using Bi-Amp, then running high volume puts your tweeters at ultimate high risk of suddendeath through clipping-loads when LFE strikes an high volume effect.

Regarding this, keep the 4ohms or 6ohms and above switch of the AVR in mind. For liability reasons (of the AVR, not the speakers) the manufacturer recommends 4ohm setting for 4ohm boxes for temperature-reasons in the AVR, but this limits the power leading to clipping quite earlier.... If you wanna send the LFE to the fronts, maybe the 6ohms and above is a lot more liable setting to extend your tweeters lifetime since you wanna avoid clipping at all cost at those loads coz they cant take it.

You want a good ventilated AVR in such cases as it gets hotter.

On the otherhand this (4ohm setting) saves standby-power as the voltage is reduced on the lines and if you use subwoofer for LFE and you are not so much into high volume stereo sound, thats OK and very ecologic setting

 

[Cypherdelic]

And theres another thing to consider: bassreflex. if your full-spectrum frontspeaker is bassreflex-design. Its not recommended. Please dont try that presenting the LFE. It simply doesnt sound good, the precision of the effect is very low and usually they are far from your "seat" so dont feel it that much the same time.

Better choose non-bassreflex (enclosed) subwoofer to do the job instead, try behind your sofa for LFE-sub and still use the front full. You wont regret this in terms of high fidelity quality.
This saves a lot of money for the AVR... As those active subwoofers have own power supply.
And of course this way your expensive frontspeakers are a lot saver.